Any other industrial designers out there?

Any other builders out there with a background / education in industrial design?

I'm a product designer by day and fledgling builder / hobbyist by night. At my day job I'm tired of "design by committee" with engineers, marketing, and sub-par overseas manufacturing influencing (and sometimes butchering) the end result. I'm drawn to frame building for my love of bicycling, creating, and having complete control over the final outcome. I also love working in a shop with my hands - industrial design these days is far too reliant on CAD and being buried behind the computer.

Would love to hear if there's any of you out there, your thoughts, and how you came by bicycle building.

(moderators - if this belongs in general discussion, sorry! I can delete / repost it)

I am an Industrial Designer trade and training. Start here... You can also read more at my Smoked Out. That should give you something to chew on for a few...

Thank you for the links / stories! I'm slowly reading through the first one... so jealous of your shop, it's beautiful. That's my dream.

I'm an ID guy too, and I agree that there's not enough time spent drawing, prototyping & developing these days. I fortunately get to do enough of that to keep me happy, but I'm not a framebuilder. I did learn to braze in design school and that's when I built my first 2 frames under the tutelage of an experienced pro. My third was on my own when I had access to the resources & facilities to do so. I was a bike mechanic for many years (which helped put me through school) and also worked in the modelmaking/proto-shop of a big design firm for a couple summers too. Those hands on skills gave me a ton of the groundwork for my career. I've been lucky to do a lot of work in the bike industry though from helmets & eyewear to cockpit components to the aesthetics of a couple carbon frames (which were engineered by the right people for that job). It's been fun and like anything, it's what you make of it.

I’m also a product designer. At our office we got a large wonderful workshop, fully equipped for wood, plastic, clay, textile and metal work + paint box. Of course we use computers, CAD and all kind of rapid prototyping but unlike many other design firms we still spend a lot of time in our workshop, working with our hands. You can almost always tell if a product has been designed by hands or in a computer.

A number of our clients are in the bike industry so every now and then I get paid to design bike stuff.

We are allowed to use our workshop for private projects. So far I have only built two frames, no plans to become a professional builder. Everything I know about frame building has been learnt from forums like this one. My main problem is finding time to build…

I know for myself, so much of what I do and have done never saw the light of day nor did I ever get a chance to design how I felt I should have been where the process of making, physically making and creating, added to the form and function in the development process. Part of frame building has been a return to that process rooted in physically making the item you're drawing. My own bikes are deeply rooted in the process of execution not only from drawing board to jig but from on trail experience to the drawing board.

I agree with Peter E. that an item that has been designed by hands rather than a computer stands out from the rest. That's not a dig on CAD. CAD is simply another tool much like a file, lathe or torch. It has it's place in the design process, and it is an important piece of the design process at that. But if there is one thing that by building bicycles can bring, even if it only remains as a hobby (and in many cases, it's most likely best just left as that), it brings about a problem solving that satiates a need to create physically with your hands, mind and body that no amount of time behind a computer, or even sketching with pencil and paper ever could or would.

However, if you are coming to the table and you already have your build process dialed, a shop space to build that is your own and you can build the bicycles well and now want to make a career out of the trade of frame building:

Rule #1: Have a plan.
Rule #2: Have a strategy to implement the plan.
Rule #3: Know how to run a business.
Rule #4: Know how to develop a brand, build on it, and carve out something that is meaningful and unique. Don't just regurgitate.
Rule #5: Don't quit your day job.

Orders come slowly. The custom market is small and there's a lot of really talented builders already to choose from so what you bring must be just as good but must be unique. It takes time to build a business and brand. Even the most experienced will tell you that the first 5 years of any business are the ones where it either succeeds or fails. The vast majority of businesses fail. If you are coming to the table with little to no experience, don't waste your time trying to figure out how to build a bike on top of learning how to run a business at the same time. The hurdles are just too great. You should concentrate just on building bicycles first. Files. Torch. Metal. Vise. Put it all together and make the tools an extension of your body. Building a bicycle is just the next step when you have all the necessary building blocks of building a bicycle honed. The tools are now your drawing board. It took time to learn how to draw, draw well and communicate concepts through the process of ideation. So focus that same time and dedication to learning how to use the tools, and to then building bicycles. That's what brings the most joy now and is really an escape from the daily toil.

Build your brand on your time so it has time to grow at a natural pace instead of forcing anything - let it live on paper. That's good enough for now and a while to come. Focus on creating an identity that is unique. Learn about business, how to set one up, what steps to take, when etc. However: All of this is done on your free time, while you have a job. You don't have a website. You do not have a shingle hung out. If you want to have a blog or flickr account, I feel that is ok. But be very clear with everyone who reads it or views it: It's a process blog. You're not in business. Nothing is for sale. You're learning. This is your passion and you're playing. That's it. Too many rush in with little to no experience and honestly are not really bringing anything new or unique to the table that has merit. That's not to say that building bicycles in a traditional format is bad for example as a new player, but don't regurgitate the same story told by so many before you. That's what i mean by being unique and building a brand that is centric to that idea. That's what sets apart a Firefly from a Engin, a Zank from a Sachs, etc. If you have access to an established builder who agrees to work with you in some sort of apprenticeship program that the both of you hammer out the details of goals, time frame, expectations, deliverables, etc. that is preferred. That way both know exactly what you're putting into the project and exactly what you're both getting out of it. Be open and honest. Don't kid yourself that this is the promised land. It's hard work. It requires an immense amount of time, focus, determination and dedication. Every day I am still learning and that is one of the many reasons what makes it so rewarding for myself. But I do not stand where I do today if I did not already possess all the stacked skills required to be a bicycle frame builder and a plan and strategy to implement a unique brand in the custom bicycle market. All of that took an immense amount of time. Really a life's work in many ways as I see it and it continues as a life's path.

I will also add this: What really sets an Industrial Designer apart from most is our ability to problem solve through the language of design. The design process is heavily rooted in the creative process as well as the fabrication process. It's one rooted in hands-on methodology, a deep understanding of materials and their applications as well as the "how" of production. Drawing something is half of it, it's figuring out how to make that object that is the other half and I believe that is something that is special to the trade and training that I received on my path to becoming an Industrial Designer.

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Originally Posted by Peter E

You can almost always tell if a product has been designed by hands or in a computer.

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Totally agree - we almost always have a 3D model made / printed. It's crazy how different it looks in the real world, often leading to adjusted design and proportion.
That's awesome you guys have bike industry clients, I'd be happy to work for anything bike related.

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Originally Posted by fortyfour

If you are coming to the table with little to no experience, don't waste your time trying to figure out how to build a bike on top of learning how to run a business at the same time. The hurdles are just too great. You should concentrate just on building bicycles first. Files. Torch. Metal. Vise. Put it all together and make the tools an extension of your body.

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Lots of good advice, thank you. For me building is purely a hobby, I build because I enjoy every second of it. If it leads to something financially sustainable in the future of course I would be happy, but I'm not necessarily aiming for that, nor expecting it. I think if I put the financial and temporal pressure to my building it would no longer be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by fortyfour

The design process is heavily rooted in the creative process as well as the fabrication process. It's one rooted in hands-on methodology, a deep understanding of materials and their applications as well as the "how" of production. Drawing something is half of it, it's figuring out how to make that object that is the other half...

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Well said - there's designing the bicycle, then there's actually making the bicycle. The making aspect is what gets me excited, and really where I think a background in ID can help a builder. I'm excited to find the build process that works best for me and (hopefully!) one day laying out a personal shop that maximizes that process (efficiently and accurately).

Throughout my education, it was drilled into me that you can only take something so far as a sketch, a drawing or CAD model. That's still only a concept really. You have to get real and make it. So much of the refinement of that object comes from physically working with it and solving problems as you arrive at new departure points as you move throughout the design process while the object takes shape.

So much of designing the bicycle also comes from riding the material, using the material and working with the material. That speaks volumes of it's nature and temperament. If I may, you need to communicate with the material. If anything, the hobby of building bicycles can be that window into personal exploration, skill betterment and honing of process that then can be applied across a broad spectrum of professional endeavors. There's a lot to be learned just from the act of "making" and the repetition of making.

Noah this is turning into a great thread thanks for starting this.

Another product design/engineer here, definitely not quitting my day job, throwing out a shingle or taking money from anyone anytime soon. Just going to slowly build my skills, try to learn from and support in anyway possible those who have come before me. I will only build for myself and my closest kin with stipulations of explicit feedback. To me each new frame I build or design will be an experiment to better understand the materials and geometries that make a bicycle what it is.

I am a firm believer of learning through experience and failure; fail early and fail often, it may lead to success. Too often CAD distorts reality in a designers' work, resulting in miss proportioned, poor functioning, or down right un-manufacturable products. One must learn to express a design in the fullest way possible, usually by hand out of real materials, processes, and techniques. Not my quote but I believe it to be true " A computer can be a great Lite-Brite for a bad idea."

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But if there is one thing that by building bicycles can bring, even if it only remains as a hobby (and in many cases, it's most likely best just left as that), it brings about a problem solving that satiates a need to create physically with your hands, mind and body that no amount of time behind a computer, or even sketching with pencil and paper ever could or would.

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Cant agree with this more!

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it was drilled into me that you can only take something so far as a sketch, a drawing or CAD model

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Years ago I had someone bring me a lovely CAD drawing of an ultra-rigid MTB frame he'd designed. This was a gorgeous bit of work, it must have taken him months, and yes it did look incredibly stiff and strong.

Sadly, I had to point out to him that running a brace between the chainstays would prevent the wheel going around.