Advanced ferments

Who here has taken a dive (or dipped their toes) into the world of ferments beyond fruit/veg+salt+water+time? I'm not talking pickles, krauts and kimchi (not that there's anything wrong with those) but rather the hardcore stuff like koji (or tempeh and its ilk), miso, shoyu, garum, black fruits/veg...etc.

It all takes a lot of time, some space to let things age, a lot of patience, and good bacterial control. But the results are everything we love about umami, acids and general FUNK.

Personally I've been on the train for a bit, ever since experimenting with some weird kombuchas (coffee kombucha anyone?) and realizing that the world of fermentation goes so far beyond pickles and that you can essentially ferment anything you want, in addition to realizing that all of the goodness in umami-rich dishes that we love starts with ferments (miso being a great example).

So who is into this weirdness? What is your ferment setup like? How do you keep track of things? What are some hits and misses?

I'll watch as this thread develops. I like pickles and we have made some good ones. I love kimchi, but leave that to the pros. But I have never made the jump to kombuchas, just never appealed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by guido

I'll watch as this thread develops. I like pickles and we have made some good ones. I love kimchi, but leave that to the pros. But I have never made the jump to kombuchas, just never appealed.

---

Kimchi is a lot easier than it seems, really. And compared to a lot of the more deep-dive ferments it's pretty simple and quick. Depending on how much of it you eat, you can make many months' worth in an afternoon (plus some time to ferment). I'm happy to share my recipe if interested. A fermentation crock is helpful, but when I first started with it I used a large pot and some stone weights...

As for kombucha, it is something that you need to do regularly if you want to make it yourself, as the SCOBY (Symbiotic Culture of Bacteria and Yeast) need to be fed to be kept alive, like sourdough. But as someone who doesn't enjoy alcohol but enjoys the taste of fermented drinks, it's pretty awesome.

Recently while cycling through Latvia I had the chance to try fermented birch sap drinks and was totally blown away. Unfortunately we don't have much in the way of birch around here so I've yet to try that one at home.

I very infrequently brew kombucha; the Mother stays fed at all times but it's less often that I actually experiment with new flavors. I've had good luck with blackberry, blueberry, and even apple, all of these with grated ginger to aid the second ferment. The attempt of the Pluot flavor didn't go as well, but having never eaten the fruit prior, I didn't know what to look for in terms of ripeness, sweetness, etc. Coffee kombucha, huh? Do you mean with green cherries or with the fruit itself?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by J_B

I very infrequently brew kombucha; the Mother stays fed at all times but it's less often that I actually experiment with new flavors. I've had good luck with blackberry, blueberry, and even apple, all of these with grated ginger to aid the second ferment. The attempt of the Pluot flavor didn't go as well, but having never eaten the fruit prior, I didn't know what to look for in terms of ripeness, sweetness, etc. Coffee kombucha, huh? Do you mean with green cherries or with the fruit itself?

---

We keep a pretty strict no-waste household, so the coffee kombucha started as a way to use up leftover coffee (either grounds or beans that had gone stale during heavy roasting experimentation periods). So here's my recipe for using leftover grounds (I imagine everyone here has leftover coffee grounds that generally get tossed or maybe composted).

- 1kg coffee grounds (save them from your machine/pour-over/etc and let them air-dry or dehydrate in the oven at low temp ~90C)
- 300g sugar
- 200ml kombucha (backslop, this can't be from store-bought unless it's unpasteurized)
- 2.2L water
- SCOBY

1. Combine the sugar and water in a pot and bring to a boil, stirring to dissolve the sugar (if your pot is not big enough, you can dissolve the sugar in about 500ml of boiling water then add the remaining water at step 2)

2. Pour the sugar/water over your coffee grounds and let cool. Infuse overnight in the fridge (or a dark, cool place) then strain into your fermentation vessel (we use a 5 gallon brewing bucket). Now you can discard the grounds (don't compost these due to the sugar content)

3. Add your backslop/kombucha, stirring everything until you have a nice homogenous mixture, then add your SCOBY.

4. Proceed as with any kombucha (i.e. cover with cheesecloth/mesh, store in a dark place, and occasionally ladle some of the liquid onto the top to prevent your SCOBY from drying out). After about a week to ten days (depending on how active your SCOBY is) you'll have some tasty coffee kombucha

If I start another fermentation project in the house, it might be beer, but I also might be evicted by Mrs. RW. Keep posting folks, as I love to read about your projects.

I make sourdough, that's all the fermentation experience I've got.

The chef that runs Noma has a pretty massive fermentation project going, and he seems to be fermenting everything. I first heard/saw it on something on Netflix...maybe Bourdain's show, I can't remember. I remember some of the stuff he sampled I was like "naaaaahhhhh, I'll pass on that...." It was something that had been fermented for waaaaaay too long....like, months, years. A lot of it looks really nasty.

Here's the instagram page :: The Noma Fermentation Lab (@nomaferments) • Instagram photos and videos

I mean, this looks like something that would make you sick if you ate it :: The Noma Fermentation Lab on Instagram: “Seems like we make a Bushi for every season! Here we’ve tested out Roebuck loin cured with juniper and carrot flowers then hot smoked with…”

They just put out a book apparently - https://www.amazon.com/Noma-Guide-Fe...a+fermentation

Sourdough is definitely a real ferment - it's alive, so very alive!

NOMA's fermentation lab is definitely an inspiration. I'd love to have that kind of space and time, as the world of fermentation still has a lot left to be explored. Recently reading Guns, Germs and Steel reminded me of how early on in human evolution we settled on the things that we still eat today, and how (+why) so little has changed. But it's 2018 and things are a bit different than 6000-8000 B.C. when much of this was decided, so alas, horizons await.

I've currently got a few interesting projects going, one of which actually came from that book: Bee-pollen garum (despite being plant-based/vegan, my wife and I do accept local honey/pollen in some exchanges we've made for our own goods). It's still got some time to go, but I'll update when we have our first taste.

Aside from that, we have koji in the fermentation chamber about once every two weeks (pearl barley, cracked wheat, or brown rice mostly) and I currently have a sunflower seed miso going, which I've tasted the shoyu of and it's delicious..

This weekend I'll be taking the first taste of a new experiment to use up the end bits of last summer's apricots as well as a bunch of whisky we've had sitting around since before we stopped drinking alcohol: apricot-whisky vinegar! Expect an update soon (sooner if I could get the airstone/bubble working)

I don't know much about this, but our neighbor on the first floor is a Japanese chef (multiple cookbooks, search Hiroko Shimbo.) She has a mother for making Japanese pickles. These are different than kosher dills using cucumbers - Japanese pickles are other vegetable types (although do use some cucumbers) preserved by sticking them in the pickle mother which is a dark chocolate colored paste. Anyway, Hiroko's pickle mother is old. Over 100 years old. It was begun by her (non-pickle) grandmother, and it has traveled to three continents as they moved around earlier in their lives before NYC. She told us that if the house was on fire, the first thing she would grab as she ran out the door would be the pickle mother (which is in a white 5 gallon paint bucket.) There was no second thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j44ke

Anyway, Hiroko's pickle mother is old. Over 100 years old. It was begun by her (non-pickle) grandmother, and it has traveled to three continents as they moved around earlier in their lives before NYC.

---

That's fascinating. I would love to know how it has changed with the moves. Some time ago I helped a friend build up his first real bike and in exchange for teaching him crankset/bb installation, cabling etc. etc. he traded me some of his father's sourdough starter, which came from his father. Previously the starter had only been used in Auvergne, some 400km north of here in a very different climate. Even after only 6 months in my place here in Marseille the nature of the bread changed completely. He was using locally milled flour, so am I (but again, 400km away), so I imagine this combined with the difference in air microbes has changed things quite a bit. Now I'm curious to give some back to him to see if it would revert... sourdough yeast cultures seem like a very blank canvas, but I know nothing about pickling mothers and whether or not they are similarly labile. I'm wondering if what you/she is talking about is similar to nukadoko, which is fermented rice bran that you pickle traditional nukazake pickles with. If not I'd love to know what it's called!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j44ke

She told us that if the house was on fire, the first thing she would grab as she ran out the door would be the pickle mother (which is in a white 5 gallon paint bucket.) There was no second thing.

---

I totally get this. The time invested and personality developed in active ferments/cultures is irreplaceable. That cannot be said of most things that we keep in our homes, especially in the digital age.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Octave

Kimchi is a lot easier than it seems, really. And compared to a lot of the more deep-dive ferments it's pretty simple and quick. Depending on how much of it you eat, you can make many months' worth in an afternoon (plus some time to ferment). I'm happy to share my recipe if interested. A fermentation crock is helpful, but when I first started with it I used a large pot and some stone weights...

snip...

---

Sure a recipe for kimchi would be fun to try. Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by guido

Sure a recipe for kimchi would be fun to try. Thanks!

---

Okay, here is as basic as I go (note that I use a vegan replacement for fish sauce, which these days is a garum but I'll put in my old equivalent in case you're interested).

- Napa or savoy cabbage (1 large head, outermost leaves removed)
- Sea salt (a lot)
- 1/2C fish sauce (vegan: 2T soy sauce, 2T coconut sugar, 4T water, 4T pineapple juice)
- 3T fresh ginger, peeled
- 1/3C garlic cloves (about 1 large head), peeled
- 1 medium white onion, roughly chopped
- 1/4-1/2C chili flake (depending on how spicy you like it)
- 2 carrots, shredded into matchsticks
- 1 bunch green onions, finely chopped

1. Quarter the cabbage and remove the bottom core
2. Liberally sprinkle sea salt until every surface has been lightly touched (you can do this by shaking it all between two large bowls, or rub down every leaf with salt). Let rest for 30 minutes.
3. Meanwhile, place ginger, garlic, onion and chili into a food processor and blend until smooth/uniform.
4. Add fish sauce (or equivalent) and blend again until smooth/uniform
5. Now the labor begins: turn the cabbage over and press it down firmly (you can use a small weight, but not too large). Repeat this 3 times, waiting 20 minutes between each.
6. Meanwhile, combine the carrot and green onion with your sauce from the food processor.
7. Once the cabbage has been flipped and pressed all 3 times, rinse it thoroughly in cold water (removing excess salt) then pat dry.
8. Once dry, use your hands (gloved both for sterility and spicy protection) to rub all of the leaves thoroughly with the sauce.
9. Place all of the fully coated leaves into your fermentation container (a crock, a large bucket, basically anything that you can sterilize and cover to leave) and press down firmly to remove any air. The liquid should squeeze up and out and cover all of the leaves. Use a weight (clay, brick, non-metal anything) to push down on this (if you put a plate on top, then put the weight on that, it will keep random leaves from popping out of the liquid).
10. Leave to ferment in a cool, dark place for at least two days.
11. Transfer to sterile jars and place in the refrigerator for an additional 7-10 days. Longer = more intense flavor, tang, and more tender leaves. Make sure to burp your jars once every day or two to prevent them from exploding while it ferments.
12. Eat your kimchi. It will keep in the fridge for months.


The customization here is basically endless - big leaves, shredded leaves, different types of cabbage, onions, add some radish...etc. etc. The keys that cannot be missed are that everything you use is sterile and that during the fermentation none of the veg is exposed to the air. It should always be submerged below the liquid. The salting process draws a lot of liquid out so this should not be a problem, but compressing it thoroughly with your hands into your vessel/jars is key to ensuring that it all stays below the liquid line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Octave

Okay, here is as basic as I go (note that I use a vegan replacement for fish sauce, which these days is a garum but I'll put in my old equivalent in case you're interested).

- Napa or savoy cabbage (1 large head, outermost leaves removed)
- Sea salt (a lot)
- 1/2C fish sauce (vegan: 2T soy sauce, 2T coconut sugar, 4T water, 4T pineapple juice)
- 3T fresh ginger, peeled
- 1/3C garlic cloves (about 1 large head), peeled
- 1 medium white onion, roughly chopped
- 1/4-1/2C chili flake (depending on how spicy you like it)
- 2 carrots, shredded into matchsticks
- 1 bunch green onions, finely chopped

1. Quarter the cabbage and remove the bottom core
2. Liberally sprinkle sea salt until every surface has been lightly touched (you can do this by shaking it all between two large bowls, or rub down every leaf with salt). Let rest for 30 minutes.
3. Meanwhile, place ginger, garlic, onion and chili into a food processor and blend until smooth/uniform.
4. Add fish sauce (or equivalent) and blend again until smooth/uniform
5. Now the labor begins: turn the cabbage over and press it down firmly (you can use a small weight, but not too large). Repeat this 3 times, waiting 20 minutes between each.
6. Meanwhile, combine the carrot and green onion with your sauce from the food processor.
7. Once the cabbage has been flipped and pressed all 3 times, rinse it thoroughly in cold water (removing excess salt) then pat dry.
8. Once dry, use your hands (gloved both for sterility and spicy protection) to rub all of the leaves thoroughly with the sauce.
9. Place all of the fully coated leaves into your fermentation container (a crock, a large bucket, basically anything that you can sterilize and cover to leave) and press down firmly to remove any air. The liquid should squeeze up and out and cover all of the leaves. Use a weight (clay, brick, non-metal anything) to push down on this (if you put a plate on top, then put the weight on that, it will keep random leaves from popping out of the liquid).
10. Leave to ferment in a cool, dark place for at least two days.
11. Transfer to sterile jars and place in the refrigerator for an additional 7-10 days. Longer = more intense flavor, tang, and more tender leaves. Make sure to burp your jars once every day or two to prevent them from exploding while it ferments.
12. Eat your kimchi. It will keep in the fridge for months.


The customization here is basically endless - big leaves, shredded leaves, different types of cabbage, onions, add some radish...etc. etc. The keys that cannot be missed are that everything you use is sterile and that during the fermentation none of the veg is exposed to the air. It should always be submerged below the liquid. The salting process draws a lot of liquid out so this should not be a problem, but compressing it thoroughly with your hands into your vessel/jars is key to ensuring that it all stays below the liquid line.

---

Ooooh! Project time!

Thanks!

It is indeed a nukadoko. Hiroko confirmed it. Hers appears a lot darker than the ones I see online. She is actually on her way to Japan right now. She takes 10-14 people there for cooking/cuisine/history tours 2 or 3 times a year. Lots of restaurants, markets, fishermen, and of course chefs. And eating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j44ke

It is indeed a nukadoko. Hiroko confirmed it. Hers appears a lot darker than the ones I see online. She is actually on her way to Japan right now. She takes 10-14 people there for cooking/cuisine/history tours 2 or 3 times a year. Lots of restaurants, markets, fishermen, and of course chefs. And eating.

---

^^That sounds so fun!

If y'all are ever traveling to a new town and looking for stuff to do, see if they have a food tour. I've done the one in Thomasville, GA (the nicest little town in the middle of nowhere that no one's ever heard of) and it was really cool.

When we went to Japan two years ago, Hiroko gave us more restaurant recommendations than we could use, though we did our best to eat at as many as possible. The food in Japan is pretty amazing.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5336/...e01a4abb_b.jpg

This is the tour she's leading right now.

Thanks for the inspiration @j44ke , this weekend I started a bed of nukadoko after a quick trip to find some rice bran. Most of what I read seems to agree that it takes about two weeks to start being functional, and quite a bit longer to develop character. I'll update here as I taste things...

A lucky weekend stumble at the "vide grenier" (basically a neighborhood garage sale) in our neighborhood found me a nice fish tank pump which (after a quick bit of solder and some cleaning) I'm now using to bubble the apricot-whisky vinegar (this helps the AAB form acetic acid, bringing the time for fermentation down from months to weeks). Update coming in 7-10 days when I give it a taste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Octave

That's fascinating. I would love to know how it has changed with the moves. Some time ago I helped a friend build up his first real bike and in exchange for teaching him crankset/bb installation, cabling etc. etc. he traded me some of his father's sourdough starter, which came from his father. Previously the starter had only been used in Auvergne, some 400km north of here in a very different climate. Even after only 6 months in my place here in Marseille the nature of the bread changed completely. He was using locally milled flour, so am I (but again, 400km away), so I imagine this combined with the difference in air microbes has changed things quite a bit.

---

You guys need to read https://www.amazon.com/Never-Home-Al.../dp/1541645766 . It covers all sorts of really interesting urban ecology type stuff. The final chapter discusses a test of exactly this question: Sourdough starter microbiome compared to baker's kitchen, environment and hands. SUPER COOL. Like you say - it's alive!

Thanks for the rec @defspace !

Here are some updates for those following along.

Nukadoko - I started this right away after @j44ke 's enlightening post. So it's been about three weeks and it's just starting to make good pickles. Until this point I'd essentially been feeding it a fresh piece of veg every 1-2 days to keep the microbial colony growing. But yesterday we popped a few carrots in there around 8am and took them out for dinner and they were fantastic. Reminded me of tsukemono, but a little bit less sweet. These are countertop (see final note for conditions.

Koji - Had a great batch of barley koji but didn't do anything with it other than eat it. Crisped up in a pan it's like little umami bombs. A brown rice koji batch came out of the fermenter on Saturday after a 72hr ferment just on the edge of sporing. 500g went to making a pumpkin seed miso, another 500g went to making a hazelnut miso and the remaining 200g was pulsed into a powder then used as a coating for baked tempeh* (SO META).

Tempeh - Anyone who likes a good non-animal protein source should be making tempeh at home. It is dead easy. Counter top to fermenter to counter top in 48-72hr and approximately one million times better than store-bought. Endless possibilities but I made a batch from 500g dry, hulled soybeans and so far we have had it as the main dish in two dinners (for two people, the lady and I) and we've probably used a quarter of it. Maybe 10min of actual work plus two days of waiting. That also puts the cost per serving around 0.20eu which compares to about 1.4eu from the local bio...

Apricot-whisky vinegar - Finished this one up at 6.5% acetic acid and 0.7% EtOH. It's great as a drizzle over salad or in a dressing. Haven't cooked with it yet but it'll be interesting to see how the residual apricot sugars play with heat.

Lacto-fermented mango honey - This stuff is killer good. A splash in an iced coffee, or more often, a teaspoon in a large glass of bubbly water (recently acquired a soda stream) is a bit of sweet with so much flavor complexity. Hard to pinpoint anything to compare it to. Really nice stuff. Next step will be using it in a marinade.

In progress: coffee shoyu, bee-pollen garum (I know, bad vegan), and the two above mentioned misos in the fermenter. Christmas presents nailed!


Final note: for what it's worth, our place is made mostly of stone and sits around 22-24C with a constant 62-64% humidity. The fermentation chamber I built (mostly garbage finds) is for the most part running at 30-31C with 80% humidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by defspace

You guys need to read https://www.amazon.com/Never-Home-Al.../dp/1541645766 . It covers all sorts of really interesting urban ecology type stuff. The final chapter discusses a test of exactly this question: Sourdough starter microbiome compared to baker's kitchen, environment and hands. SUPER COOL. Like you say - it's alive!

---

Sourdough Hands: How Bakers And Bread Are A Microbial Match : The Salt : NPR