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Thread: bike shit fit

  1. #161
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by edoz View Post
    Just shoot me now.

    Just me, I really like the idea of people knowing their basic fit numbers and to spend quality time measuring their bikes. Development of a rider position is just that, it develops over time sometimes it needs to change. Protect yourself by staying involved with this process. Use a tape measure, write it down!

    Some of my heros in the bike fit world are possessed with uncanny ability to see things in riders which others miss. Either you have it or you don't and $275 is not going to make it different.

    If you have to rely on a system in order to arrive at a set of fitting numbers you have lost before you started. Compound that with willful disregard for required on the bike experience to know what it feels like to race a bike or ride 15,000 miles training , for instance, leads to some of the bike fitters who believe themselves to have skills to work with people who DO race, who ARE riding big miles and seeking real answers.

    Is that harsh to say? Yes.

  2. #162
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    A guy calls the musicians' guild to get a quote on a 6 piece band for a wedding. The rep says "Off the top of my head, about $2000". He says, "WHAT? FOR MUSIC?. "The rep responds " I'll tell you what. Call the plumbers' union & ask for six plumbers to work from 6 to midnight on a Saturday night. Whatever they charge you, we'll work for half."
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

  3. #163
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    A guy calls the musicians' guild to get a quote on a 6 piece band for a wedding. The rep says "Off the top of my head, about $2000". He says, "WHAT? FOR MUSIC?. "The rep responds " I'll tell you what. Call the plumbers' union & ask for six plumbers to work from 6 to midnight on a Saturday night. Whatever they charge you, we'll work for half."
    Try the pipe-fitters' union atmo.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by ron l edmiston View Post
    i had no idea what my fit was, thought i did --- after a frank pepe's pizza in new haven, a short rental buick ride with a brother to a welcome smile, another righteous upstairs smile, a small bundle of fur & a kitty purr in front on a bench at the place of fire --- & it fits..

    ronnie with that smiley face emoticon..
    I couldn't even fit on a recumbent after a frank pepe's pie!
    my name is Matt

    INSTA

  5. #165
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    In a past life I did a fair amount of racing, coaching, some fitting, and owned a small bike tour company. My wife is an ex-chiropractor that worked with elite athletes. During the tours she did the massage work for people.
    Through the tour company we saw hundreds of riders on all kinds of bikes. These are 'normal' folks that really like riding their bikes...think of people who run marathons but you would never think they did to look at them.

    My wife and I had a system. She would work on people and during that time she could quickly figure out the physical root cause of pain/discomfort that a person was experiencing. She would describe to me what might cause the physical issue ...'xxx is out of whack generally caused by yyy being under stress'. I would take this info and have the person ride for me. I would take the info my wife passed on, combine it with my knowledge about riding a bike (based on 100,000+ miles and to many races to count), add to the mix that what these riders were looking to accomplish (not racing), and make a couple of adjustments.

    This resulted in many happy people. In several cases these were people that had been 'fitted' for a high end bike.

    We did not charge for this. I did not advertise this service as part of the tour. I did not promote it during the tour. I did it when I or my wife could see someone was hurting during the tour and we wanted them to enjoy it, not suffer through it.
    Brian McLaughlin

  6. #166
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    It's still very simple. It's crystal clear what the state of bike fitting is. It's not nice, but these are facts everyone should know before throwing his/her cash at a fitter

    1. Every fitter uses different methods and basically flat out disagrees on each others work.
    2. There's no fitting method that has been proven to be better. This one needs to be stressed. There's NO supporting science on any method. Zero. As soon as someone mention "science" you are being fleeced.
    3. Women and male physiology are for all purposes the same. The bell curves overlap almost perfectly. Anyone talking about a woman's fit is fleecing you. Women's bikes/saddles... stay away.

    Then:

    - Fitting a bike is easy. Indeed, contrary to what people say, most people I see are decently fitted. And I certainly do not believe Dutch stores are so much better at fitting a bike ;) => I notice that this throwing cash at "experts" is an American hobby, as I seldom hear about "fitters" here in the Netherlands.
    - Heel on pedal, arm at point of saddle is hardly an endpoint, but it serves amazingly well for a first fit. Eyeball and season to comfort after a few rides.
    - For a highly regarded starting point: Genzling's formula is free and pretty easy to use for the most important values.
    - Bike fit is highly dependend on agility. This is determined by practice (for example making many miles, or being a karateka^^), age and physiology. Listen to your body. Don't believe that Greg's position is suited for everyone... that was the result of an athlete's body with 100k's of mileage.

    Ergo: The best way to fit a bike is ride it and then adjust.

    I know I'm insulting people who try to make a living by selling their "fitting" skills, but the oft stated "a bike fitting is the best upgrade ever" is quite amazing considering every fitter gives a different advice. Indeed, most people who give this advice have a history of going to different fitters to chase that holy grail; "A perfect fit".
    Support your local bike shop.

  7. #167
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by anon. View Post
    Most people don't buy suits from tailors. If you're buying off-the-rack, then yes you generally* pay for alterations.


    * "generally" meaning "i'm sure there are exceptions, you really don't have to list them"
    We are talking suits, not T-Shirts.

    I'm going with a very clear example anyway:

    Bargain chain Suit Supply will not only help you pick an OTR suit, the most common alteration (Shortening trouser) is free.

    We are talking 1000$+ bikes, not 200$ wallmart bikes. The bike fit should be part of the sale. Indeed, fitting the bike generally is often how you close the deal. (Same as fitting a suit, where the salesman by fitting you crosses the "buy" treshold smoothly)
    Support your local bike shop.

  8. #168
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Loknor View Post
    3. Women and male physiology are for all purposes the same. The bell curves overlap almost perfectly. Anyone talking about a woman's fit is fleecing you.
    Amen sista' atmo.
    Really.

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    ^ I dunno about all that, I've noticed that a lot of women that are on the taller side have long legs for their height compared to guys on average. Also I've known a lot of women that prefer women's saddles to men's saddles. I think fit obviously should only depend on body dimensions and fitness, but completely dismissing woman specific bikes (which as far as I can tell are usually just shorter top tubes with slightly higher bars) and saddles completely doesn't sound like something a lot of women would agree with. The majority of women I see on road bikes don't seem to be all about the long stem and low bars that a similarly tall male would have, even the very fit ones, because their bodies aren't the same proportions.
     

  10. #170
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by coolberto hipsterdor View Post
    ^ I dunno about all that, I've noticed that a lot of women that are on the taller side have long legs for their height compared to guys on average.
    But on average they also have shorter feet, and the foot is considered part of the leg length in cycling atmo. You
    pedal with the ball, and when it's closer to the ankle by dint of a shorter foot, it's the same as having a shorter leg.
    PS I have no idea why I know this minutia.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by coolberto hipsterdor View Post
    ^ I dunno about all that, I've noticed that a lot of women that are on the taller side have long legs for their height compared to guys on average.
    The truth is actually that the bell curve largely overlap. Contrary to the "long legs, short torso" ideal we all have. Here is an explenation why you should be very careful extrapolating by gender:

    drjon: Riding the tails of the bell curve

    Also I've known a lot of women that prefer women's saddles to men's saddles.
    They prefer pink and softer saddles? Yes, I'm very blunt as usual, but a woman saddle is almost always softer and thus unsuited for serious use.

    Why do people buy them? Because they are buying into the "woman specific" hoax.


    I think fit obviously should only depend on body dimensions and fitness, but completely dismissing woman specific bikes (which as far as I can tell are usually just shorter top tubes with slightly higher bars) and saddles completely doesn't sound like something a lot of women would agree with. The majority of women I see on road bikes don't seem to be all about the long stem and low bars that a similarly tall male would have, even the very fit ones, because their bodies aren't the same proportions.
    This is absolutely not due to proportions as scientific proof blows that notion clearly out of the water*.

    1. Conjecture: men buy the bike for their spouse and buy into the myth. Also, most bike shops fit a woman bike more upright.

    2.Notice that most men have a better equiped bike than their spouse.. Are you going to tell me this is due to physiology? ;)

    3. Perhaps women don't feel he need to emulate a pro-tour riders fit?

    4. Proof is in the actually sizing: Almost every female bike has a standard frame with just a shorter stem and broad saddle.



    * Cormic Index difference is 49.8% for avg male versus 50.45% for average female. Not only is that hardly perceptible, in a bell curve this almost completely overlaps. So yes, a woman has on average proportionally longer legs. But it's not only hardly visible even for the "perfect average man and woman", it's so close that 49% of the women actually has proportionally longer legs than 49% of the males.

    Don't believe the myths ;)


    Internet Scientific Publications
    Support your local bike shop.

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    You guys are crazy - people don't have time to put the miles in to figure their fit out - the grand fondo they signed up for is coming up fast!
     

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    dude I'm not making this shit up and it's not myths lol, I've helped enough different girls buy / build bikes and listened to the things they've had to say after trying different things. The pink padded thing is nonsense, selle italia and others make saddles that are shaped better for women, I'm sorry but if you want to claim that physiology *down there* and what's comfortable is all the same and the difference is "a hoax" then that's plain BS. And don't take this from me, I'm just saying what I've been told by numerous female cyclists. And I'm sorry but clearly the trend is for women to have similar saddle height to males of the same height but less reach and drop, again this is not conjecture it's just reality as I see it. Who is riding what components and who is trying to emulate whoever is not relevant IMO.
     

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    I remain grumpy, sorry in advance. If there's a thing that annoys me more than claims from fitters, it's claims that female physiology differs significantly for cycling purposes.

    I said enough about the bell curve and the physiology, but lets look at the saddles. First off, a man and a woman should both use their seat bones. They are largely at the same spot, but females have wider pelvis on average compared to males with the same length. But males also are on average bigger with accompanying wider pelvis. Overlap in pelvis width is significant. Let's look at the companies offering saddles:

    Selle Italia:

    SLR. Did you check the one female model? => More padding. And a pink accent ;)
    Flite? No female model.

    Fizik:
    Arione female: 15 mm wider. => Not only does Fizik offer more choices for males, they also have a range from 130-145 mm (yes, as wide as the female saddle^^) for males. Why? Well Fizik knows that actually some males also need wide saddles ;)

    Selle SMP:
    Do not believe in female models. Notice that they offer different sizes over their whole range. If there's a company that has focussed on pelvis and comfort it's SMP.

    Specialized:
    1 female competition model (pro, not S-Works). All women are probably the same size according to Specialized. Note that they have different sizes for the men including wide models..

    I could go on, but I know that indeed not only are top end female-specific saddles rare, they are usually only one model (size) with a nice female accent color and extra padding (thus largely useless). Insult to injury looking further shows that actually these companies also offer male models that are just as wide.

    So saying it's a reality does not match with what the companies are offering, it does not match with the science about human physiology... and the top cyclists usually go for male saddles.

    And with bicycle frames that's just the same story. There's no high end market as female cyclists spending that much generally know they need the male stuff as it is just as fine for them as it is for males.
    Support your local bike shop.

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    But on average men have longer feet, and the foot is considered part of the leg length in cycling atmo. You
    pedal with the ball, and when it's further from the ankle by dint of a longer foot, it's the same as having a longer leg.
    PS I have no idea why I know this minutia.
    Hey, I retrofit that remark!
    no

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Bringing this back around.

    Couple things. I've put many many women on men's saddles. Everyone is different. Different SIT bone widths, different "bits" et cet era et cet era.
    Mr. Richard is always right, feet make alot of difference and "women's bikes" is a tragic marketing ploy to separate people from their wallets.
    I've got a Calfee size cycle and know how to use it...just saying.

    Last, I'm dead serious about this. People who do not need to make a living from bicycle fittings have NO business charging large sums for fittings unless their name is Andy Pruitt. I'm no longer charging for fittings. Bring beer.

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
    Bringing this back around.

    Couple things. I've put many many women on men's saddles. Everyone is different. Different SIT bone widths, different "bits" et cet era et cet era.
    Mr. Richard is always right, feet make alot of difference and "women's bikes" is a tragic marketing ploy to separate people from their wallets.
    I've got a Calfee size cycle and know how to use it...just saying.

    Last, I'm dead serious about this. People who do not need to make a living from bicycle fittings have NO business charging large sums for fittings unless their name is Andy Pruitt. I'm no longer charging for fittings. Bring beer.
    You can contact TooTall at either 1-800-373-3348, that's 1-800 FRE-EFIT in phone talk or reach him on the web at www.whyrupayingforthatfitting.com...
     

  18. #178
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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    I'm standing ten feet back and holding a twelve foot stick.

    However:

    Some fitters seem to know their shit.

    Others just don't.

    There isn't any relationship between the charge for the fitting and the quality. The good ones can be cheap or free and the expensive ones can be absolute junk and even damaging. If someone claims to be some sort of Svengali, then they are and you need to run away fast.

    Now I'm backing up another ten feet.
    Tom Kellogg
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    Steel Piste, D-A Piste, PD-7400, Concour lite, Zipp 404
    http://kapelmuurindependent.be


    Shortest TFC Member (5'6 3/4") & shrinking

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    I don't charge for the fitting, but one thing I've learned in my investment practice is that people often don't take free advice as serious as advice they have paid for. I know there is some research that supports that idea. Of course I'm not supporting a dollar number or fitters in general when I say that and I largely agree with what Tom said and what he implied.

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    Default Re: bike shit fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    I don't charge for the fitting, but one thing I've learned in my investment practice is that people often don't take free advice as serious as advice they have paid for. I know there is some research that supports that idea. Of course I'm not supporting a dollar number or fitters in general when I say that and I largely agree with what Tom said and what he implied.
    My price just went up to 2 six packs. Blame Jonathan.

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