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Thread: Flame "popping" out

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    Default Flame "popping" out

    So here's something I haven't experienced in the way I am now. I need some more experienced help.

    I have a OA set up that's been in use for a number of years (and gone through various cylinders, moves and reassemblies as time has gone past). The components are Harris 9200 series regs (two stage diaphrams0, Purox W200 torch, Western check valves mounted at the regs outlets and a length of 1/4" hose (with B ends) and a length of 3/16" hose (with A fittings, to lessen hand weight).

    I have been experiencing flame "popping" out quite frequently lately. I run about 5PSI for both O and A. I run a neutral flame and have various tips so keep the torch flow in it's middle range (best I know) but vary the output. I will light the flame and establish a neutral flame as I've done for years. I'll start my brazing and suffer the pops and cracks of the flame nearly or completely "blowing" out after a short time.

    I have had flame outages every so often before and generally found a tip cleaning and more care with flame distance from the work eliminate further outages. I generally check my gas pressures after establish the flame and before I start brazing (I find that reg dial drop to only take a few seconds before it stabilizes at the aprox 5psi intended levels).

    But the recent frequency has really ramped up and isn't stopped by my usual cleaning. I have had the flame outage while holding the flame well off the work. It has popped out a number of times in only a few minutes, after relighting.


    It has gotten so frustrating that I've gone back to my #2 OA set up (Older Harris regs with 1 diaphragm), Goss torch and 1/4" hoses. This set is stable and works well (if heavier and has fewer tips to choice from).


    My thoughts are that I have a reg issue, I have something in the lines or the torch handle. As this has happened with various tips I don't think the tip is the problem. What I haven't yet done is to start to exchange parts between the two set ups to see what carries over or doesn't.


    Any suggestions? I really like the Purox torch and the 3'16" hose. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    Try upping your line pressures just a touch and see if that consistency helps. If you haven't replaced your hoses in the last few years, it might be a good idea just to do that for good measure. My first inclination is that it's the tips, but if you are getting the same experience with different tips, try moving the whole set up to the back up regulators and see if that clears it up.

    Torch bodies are such bone simple devices I'm doubtful anything is in there, but they can be serviced if needed.

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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    Hoses for both set ups are new as of Aug 2017, as are the check valves. No flame issues until recently.

    I did have a plumbing leak above the problematic set up this spring. But I see so many OA sets on trucks, out in the elements, to not think there's a water in line or reg problem. Maybe I'm wrong on that possibility. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    To add to the description- When the flame does blow out there's a pressure wave of sorts coming out of the tip. If the brass is molten I see the puddle get blown away from the tip.

    I'll try some exchanging of the two set ups soon. But for now I have to go leave for my colonoscopy, I'm so hungry and getting grumpy:) Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    So I though I'd follow up. I did exchange the hoses and torches between the two sets of tanks. No issues after a couple of hours on each new arrangement. A couple of days ago I went back to the original pairing and worked another hour on one set up. A brief time with the other went well. Still no problems.

    So I guess that all I have to do it make public a problem and presto it's gone:) What really happened is any one's guess. I still suspect some contamination in the hoses. Maybe like our digestive systems it passed finally. I will continue to monitor stuff. Thanks for the air time. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    Chapter 3- This post will have a following one that adds to my frustration but has nothing to do with this problem.

    I have done some more investigating of the flame popping out problem. It's only with the Purox W-200 torch and it's #9 tip (listed at a .052" size). I have traded my Goss and other Purox tips and can't duplicate the blow out problem. I have Taken the tip apart to examine and clean. It has three parts. the copper? bent tip which screws into a base that then screws into the fitting with the O rings that attaches to the torch handle via a sleeve nut. All the passage ways are clear. I can look through some and see good/even light. I can slide a thin wire through the copper? bent tip from base to end. I have used a couple of cleaners on the pieces (lacquer thinner and Clean Streak) prior to the taking it apart. Reassembled and there's no difference, the blow out still happened very easily across a range of valve openings (and 4 to 5 PSI at the regs). Still the other tip sizes don't show this problem.

    But a possible clue has been noticed. The flame is not the typical straight/conical one. The more O I add the more the flame has three off shoots, kind of star like. When the flame gets neutral these off to the side flares are quite noticeable. It's like the flame isn't stable. It's like when you get a smudge of flux on the side for the tip, but times three flares. I have been pretty good about cleaning the tip with a tip inserting cleaning wire/"rasp" tool. Always the same size one. Maybe I have distorted the tip's hole, but three ways?

    So I have resigned myself to try to find another #9 tip (as this is a size I like for medium to larger brass brazing) and use the other tips for now. I have eliminated the regs or hoses from the issue, trading between my two units prove these aspects are fine.

    But now for the twist that confused me for a few days lately. Round 3.1 follows. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    And here's the rest of the story (sorry to Paul Harvey)

    In the middle of my trying to figure out the Purox tip #9 problems I, in a frustrating moment, decided to just replace the torch handle and tips. After all Purox W-200 stuff isn't exactly common. I ended up bidding on a used but nice looking Victor J28 with a #2 tip on Ebay. Got it at what I though wasn't a bad cost (around $70). After confirming the accepted bid I ordered a few new tips from a supplier.

    Recievedall and it took a couple of days to set it all up, practice on a scrap joint and then prep and braze a real frame one. On firing up for this noticed a flame that was kind of flickering. "OH no" I thought as the original problem was back, maybe it was a reg after all... But no. I was able to adjust the flame to be somewhat stable and being impatient went ahead with the joint.

    Tacked , shut off, checked alignment and refluxed and relit. Again the flicker between neutral and slightly carburizing. Adjusted better and finished. Went to a small spot on a fillet that needed a tad of fill and almost al the way done the flame went to total acetylene, yellow and black. Luckily pulled away befoe the spot was blackened and finished with flux and the othjer torch.

    But now I had to figure out this new issue. Was it related to the Purox #9 blow outs? Tonight I spent a few hours swapping bits around, back and forth and discovered something I have never come across before. The Ebay Victor handle has a leak, a breach, between the A and O passage within the handle. I could open one valve and watch the other line's reg output pressure drop too! Both ways, the O or the A varied. I removed the O hose and opened the A valve and had A comong out of the O's threaded hose port. Reversed and opened the O and had it coming out of the A hose fitting at the handle's end. So there's a breach/leak within the handle that now connects the two passages.

    I have started a return process with Ebay. We'll see how this goes. meanwhile I now still have three Victor tips and no handle for them. I suspect I'll get a new from a supplier J28 handle and be done with all this. What a ride! Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    It's the regs.

    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    Steve- Perhaps, but then why is the popping only with the #9 tip and not the others? And why is that tip the one with the odd flame shape? I just ordered a replacement #9 tip so in a few days will find out for real.

    I also ordered a new J28 handle, too frustrated with used eBay rolling of the dice to try one there. Soon I should confirm what works and such.

    If all works and I'm good again I'll be offering up my Goss handle and it's 3 tips as I really don't need 4 handles (the 4th is a huge Oxiweld W-300 that I keep in a drawer). Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    I don't know, but from my experience, which sounds like yours, it was the regs.

    Took Freddie Parr loaning me his to track it down

    I still have them

    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    I have an answer to the second torch problem I have had recently. A used Victor J28 handle, I bought on Ebay, seemed to have the twl gasses mixing up stream to the valves. I could turn off the O completely and watch the flame not turn all yellow and sooty. When only one gas hose wat attached to the handle and it's the valves were shut gas would leak from the other gas's threaded attachment. Like there was a hole between the two gas's passages within the handle.

    I bought a new J28 from Cyberweld and it works perfectly. No weird flame or leaks. Now the issue is whether my Ebay return will go through or if I'll have to go to a higher level with them.

    The first problem, a popping flame on my Oxiweld handle with only one of it's tips waits for a replacement tip to discover the next element. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Flame "popping" out

    Final installment- Received the Purox # 9 tip today and quickly lit it up. Steady flame acting as it should. No popping and it has a broad range of flow pressures able to be set neutral. So the issues I had with the old one have been solved with a replacement.

    I still don't know why the old one started acting the way it did. I suspect some contaminate or grit got inside the tip somehow. But now I have two nice lightweight torches with a selection of tip sizes.

    Now it's time to recoup some of the cost of new and sell off my old Goss. This will be kind of like selling off a favorite old bike that you don't really use any more, the best resolution is to let someone else make use of it. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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