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Thread: 2-piece seatstays?

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    Default 2-piece seatstays?

    Greetings fellas,

    Got a seatstay issue to ask about. I've got one of those seat lugs with the 14mm seatstay ports (kinda like the ones Zank likes to use) but I want to use a larger diameter seatstay like a 16mm. I thought about cutting shorter sections off the 14mm stays to fit into the ports and then sliding 16mm stays over those and brazing them in place, essentially making them 2-piece seatstays with the joint maybe 20-30mm away from the ports. So I'm wondering:

    1) How much of an overlap between the two sections would be advisable?
    2) Braze the two pieces together first and then the dropout+port ends or ends first and then the sleeve part?
    3) If the fit is a little loose, is using 45 silver or Fillet Pro ok?

    Thanks,
    Hansen

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Could you cut the sockets off and fillet the stays to the lug?

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Interesting... well, I guess I could! Any specifics or a visual? I'm imagining it looking kinda butchered... oh, the seat lug is already brazed in btw.

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by suhacycles View Post
    Interesting... well, I guess I could! Any specifics or a visual? I'm imagining it looking kinda butchered... oh, the seat lug is already brazed in btw.
    I don't know what lug you are using so I can't tell you what it would look like. I've used seat lugs with stay sockets and I always lop the bastards off and fillet them. Cleaner and no worries about fit or angle.

    Dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    I don't know what lug you are using so I can't tell you what it would look like. I've used seat lugs with stay sockets and I always lop the bastards off and fillet them. Cleaner and no worries about fit or angle.

    Dave
    Dave - I see what you mean. I know the ones you're referring to. The one I have is the 'P23' listed under the 'Other Oversize Cast Seat Lugs' section:

    http://www.ceeway.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/lugs.htm

    Those sockets don't look that easy to lop off...

    -Hansen

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Doc?
    That is possible and everything, hope it works out and you don't mind the extra wotk.
    Now if it was me I would figure out how to flush it (French) it so it all looks smooth.
    Filler if you just put a short overlap 12-13 mm is more than enough if you are going to hide it and french it in to look like one piece.
    If it is a bit loose you named the best fillers for that to make it simple.

    Lot of work? but if you make it nice, I guess it will be worth it. 20-30 mm down from the port I take issue with however?

    Dave Kirk is like me a bit, I really don't feel warm and fuzzy over the sockets but on that model you are so right, chopping that up is really too much work for me ?

    I wish you Luck with it !
    Freddy

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Hansen,
    I don't have one of those but the 16mm would come up flush without hanging out right>

    You will have me thinking about that one now?

    Freddy

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by suhacycles View Post
    Dave - I see what you mean. I know the ones you're referring to. The one I have is the 'P23' listed under the 'Other Oversize Cast Seat Lugs' section:

    http://www.ceeway.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/lugs.htm

    Those sockets don't look that easy to lop off...

    -Hansen
    With that seat lug it does look like you are stuck using the sockets.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    How about getting some double taper stays?

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Doc?
    That is possible and everything, hope it works out and you don't mind the extra wotk.
    Now if it was me I would figure out how to flush it (French) it so it all looks smooth.
    Filler if you just put a short overlap 12-13 mm is more than enough if you are going to hide it and french it in to look like one piece.
    If it is a bit loose you named the best fillers for that to make it simple.

    Lot of work? but if you make it nice, I guess it will be worth it. 20-30 mm down from the port I take issue with however?

    Dave Kirk is like me a bit, I really don't feel warm and fuzzy over the sockets but on that model you are so right, chopping that up is really too much work for me ?

    I wish you Luck with it !
    Freddy
    Freddy - You think 20-30 mm from the ports is too close? Is it a structural or aesthetic concern? I figure as long as that joint is well enough away from the bridge it's ok, no?

    I was thinking of filing out a pointed taper similar to what a fastback miter would look like but then again a seamless look would be cool.

    Someone recommended I ask Dave Wages about it since he does this sorta thing. I checked out his website and his version is much nicer than what I was shooting for!

    EllisSS.jpg

    Thanks!
    -Hansen

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Matthews View Post
    How about getting some double taper stays?
    I thought about it but the only one that I think would work (Deda, 16/10.5) may have a questionable fit at the port end. I'll have to buy a pair to find out for sure...

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Well?
    There is no doubt David made that really nice..
    And if you can make it fit and slip that sure takes it.
    No Kidding I like that look and no big penaty.

    I was thinking of making it look like it grew out of the cluster real smooth but that is more eye appealing to me any way.

    Double thanks for showing that.

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    I'm a little confused- are you trying to get your seat stays to work, are you trying to find an acceptable solution for your lug, or do you want to make a sleeved stay?

    My method would be to pick a stay and a lug that are compatible and work for your design. If that means making stays, great, but don't get backed into that to solve a part issue if its just to make whats on hand work. Picking up appropriate stays, or a different seat lug are both pretty easy solutions (assuming its a parts issue).

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    My solution with these constraints would probably be to file the stay until it buts up tight to the seatlug, then brass braze a 14mm extension in the end and silver braze the stay in place with a slight fillet to hide and fill the step
    ____________
    /Marten
    www.m-gineering.nl

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Estlund View Post
    I'm a little confused- are you trying to get your seat stays to work, are you trying to find an acceptable solution for your lug, or do you want to make a sleeved stay?

    My method would be to pick a stay and a lug that are compatible and work for your design. If that means making stays, great, but don't get backed into that to solve a part issue if its just to make whats on hand work. Picking up appropriate stays, or a different seat lug are both pretty easy solutions (assuming its a parts issue).
    Well, sorta. The original plan was to use 14mm stays which those seat lug ports are designed for. But I decided I wanted a stiffer/stronger set of seatstays and I'm brainstorming ways to get some 16mm stays in there since I can't turn back as the main triangle is done, make sense? I guess some lessons here are to either stick with seat lugs that don't use these ports (the ones with 16mm ports work for a 31.7 TT and ST so that was out) or just plan better next time... oh well.

    Marten - Your idea sounds pretty elegant as well and if executed properly I guess one might not even notice on first glance that the 'wrong' seatstays were used. Instead of doing it in two steps, do you think it could be done all in one shot with something like 45 silver?

    Thanks,
    Hansen

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by suhacycles View Post
    Marten - Your idea sounds pretty elegant as well and if executed properly I guess one might not even notice on first glance that the 'wrong' seatstays were used. Instead of doing it in two steps, do you think it could be done all in one shot with something like 45 silver?

    Thanks,
    Hansen
    Possibly, perhaps with some pinning and feederholes. Taking things in two easily controlled steps looks more attractive to me though
    ____________
    /Marten
    www.m-gineering.nl

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by marten View Post
    Possibly, perhaps with some pinning and feederholes. Taking things in two easily controlled steps looks more attractive to me though
    Understood... ok, I'll see what I can come up with. Thanks guys.

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Hansen, another thought would be to file a small concave detail in the outsides of the SS ports and then using a short piece of the correct size stay in the port slip the larger size over it leaving a gap of perhaps 5-10mm between the port/lug and the end of the 16mm SS with the corresponding convex profile filed into the top of the real SS to match. follow me?

    Jake

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by bellman View Post
    Hansen, another thought would be to file a small concave detail in the outsides of the SS ports and then using a short piece of the correct size stay in the port slip the larger size over it leaving a gap of perhaps 5-10mm between the port/lug and the end of the 16mm SS with the corresponding convex profile filed into the top of the real SS to match. follow me?

    Jake
    Jake - I think I see what you're getting at... but the 16mm stay doesn't make contact with that concave part of the port, correct?

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    Default Re: 2-piece seatstays?

    Quote Originally Posted by suhacycles View Post
    Jake - I think I see what you're getting at... but the 16mm stay doesn't make contact with that concave part of the port, correct?
    correct, something subtle, not too big, not too small

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