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Thread: The Knowledge 1.0 - Bike Frame Design Process

  1. #41
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    btw, you have a way with words, this is incredibly well put imho:

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    I will not "borrow" from the frame design pile and give it to the "rider position" pile if I think the ride will suck.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Understood.
    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    Frames, and all moving parts on them, are symmetrical; people are not. I understand the cleat interface is the root of most known problems, since bicycles have to be pedaled to move forward. I was around when a client and team mate of mine developed The Fit Kit as a way to minimize these issues. That experience evolved into fitting folks, too. So I get that connection and all the stepchildren that came from its loins. But - and I think I wrote this somewhere else recently - if a fitter wants to suggest that a saddle move up or forward, or that a different reach is needed, I will listen. Just don't tell me how to design a frame in order to achieve those results.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    The fitting thing has worked its way into daily conversation because it preys on the insecurities of many who feel they are not capable of knowing what is right. Wind tunnel tests notwithstanding, I think a person can easily determine what works, and what is right - all he has to do is ride a lot.[/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmermanbicycle View Post
    The fitting thing has worked its way into daily conversation because it preys on the insecurities of many who feel they are not capable of knowing what is right. Wind tunnel tests notwithstanding, I think a person can easily determine what works, and what is right - all he has to do is ride a lot.
    THIS[/QUOTE]

    I dunno, after years working at a shop... having a second critical eye can be pretty helpful. And newer riders often need quite a bit of help to really figure it out. People get used to a low saddle, or a high saddle, or a super long reach... stuff that could mess up their knees or back on longer rides, and having someone say "try it like this" really helps.

    Note: just referring to the concept of fitting in general, I'd usually see this as something to do once they have a bike, so not commenting on fitters designing frames/etc.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    The fitting thing has worked its way into daily conversation because it preys on the insecurities of many who feel they are not capable of knowing what is right.
    some people need affirmation

    40037314_384x288_generated.jpg


    unfortunately given the nature of the business, the t̶h̶e̶r̶a̶p̶i̶s̶t̶ fitter in a bike shop can't tell the customer that they're the problem, it always has to be the bike

    so they really don't do much other than jack up people's handlebar setups to make the drops inaccessible, and sell zero-offset posts and +20° 80mm stems
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    I tend to go thru these cycles where I doubt my fit, happened last year after a knee tendinitis. When something like this happens I wonder if everything is as good as it can be. I think most people who ride a lot go thru that at some point, at least all the friends I have who ride a lot do. This said I always settle back to "my" position. The worst $300 I spent was a retul fit last year after that injury, really useless.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    I will never compromise the bicycle's handling or related characteristics in order to find a way to have a rider with fitness or flexibility issues, or even one who is afraid to descend fast or pedal in a corner - I will not "borrow" from the frame design pile and give it to the "rider position" pile if I think the ride will suck.
    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but there's clearly a line where frame fit and frame function part ways. The role of a good frame builder is to find that middle ground, whether that's made to measure or full custom.

    At what point should we re-think what we're doing as riders/consumers and try to fit our body to frame (ie- increase our fitness, flexibility, etc), rather than the frame fitting us? With all the hoopla about 'fittings', perhaps some time in the gym or just riding would sort most of it out for people.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by prolix21 View Post
    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but there's clearly a line where frame fit and frame function part ways. The role of a good frame builder is to find that middle ground, whether that's made to measure or full custom.

    At what point should we re-think what we're doing as riders/consumers and try to fit our body to frame (ie- increase our fitness, flexibility, etc), rather than the frame fitting us? With all the hoopla about 'fittings', perhaps some time in the gym or just riding would sort most of it out for people.
    You answered your own question there atmo.
    Thanks.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    This is what I believe a good fitter should do, give you the tools to correct your shortfalls as well as making the most of what you have.
    Quote Originally Posted by prolix21 View Post
    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but there's clearly a line where frame fit and frame function part ways. The role of a good frame builder is to find that middle ground, whether that's made to measure or full custom.

    At what point should we re-think what we're doing as riders/consumers and try to fit our body to frame (ie- increase our fitness, flexibility, etc), rather than the frame fitting us? With all the hoopla about 'fittings', perhaps some time in the gym or just riding would sort most of it out for people.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    My interpretation of all this is that there are some who are gifted with an eye for an aesthetic that falls in line with the well-handling bike, and those who are gifted in math who can think their way to a well-handling bike. Two paths to the same (or similar) result. Don't ask the former to explain their craft in terms that will make sense to the latter.
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by David Tollefson View Post
    My interpretation of all this is that there are some who are gifted with an eye for an aesthetic that falls in line with the well-handling bike, and those who are gifted in math who can think their way to a well-handling bike. Two paths to the same (or similar) result. Don't ask the former to explain their craft in terms that will make sense to the latter.
    Kinda' sorta'.
    I think many people know how, or can be trained, to help another find a more efficient fit. Those same people would be far less equipped to also design the bicycle that contains the fit without having made a decent amount of them, and knowing how every change here (for position, for instance) affects something over there (in handling, for instance).
    Last edited by e-RICHIE; 05-02-2013 at 09:34 PM. Reason: typo -
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    In some respects for the majority of riders the fit is probably the easy bit. Getting that position dialed on an off the peg frame is a bit harder and some would say there will be some small compromise and as Richie said, building the bike for that position another skillset again.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    you guys want practice? knock yourself out on this abortion that just landed in my inbox. Yes, A performance road fit. Who can tell me whats wrong with this fit for a 5'1/2" person with very average proportions.

    Saddle length: 260mm
    Saddle Setback: 42mm
    Saddle to bar: 428mm
    Handlebar drop:: 55mm
    Saddle height: 620mm

    Is it possible to connect the tubes to accommodate this? Yes. Am I willing to do it? No.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by crumpton View Post
    Is it possible to connect the tubes to accommodate this? Yes. Am I willing to do it? No.
    Word!

    I'm waiting to see the numbers from my wife's recent tri-bike fit session. The fitter is pushing for a custom Guru for her because she has super long legs and a shorter torso. Is there any way to be sure the bike will be functional and not just a bunch of tubes put together to match the fit specs?

    J
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayme View Post
    Word!

    I'm waiting to see the numbers from my wife's recent tri-bike fit session. The fitter is pushing for a custom Guru for her because she has super long legs and a shorter torso. Is there any way to be sure the bike will be functional and not just a bunch of tubes put together to match the fit specs?

    J
    Nevermind. Mods... can you delete everything after "Word!"? Wrong place for this.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by crumpton View Post
    you guys want practice? knock yourself out on this abortion that just landed in my inbox. Yes, A performance road fit. Who can tell me whats wrong with this fit for a 5'1/2" person with very average proportions.

    Saddle length: 260mm
    Saddle Setback: 42mm
    Saddle to bar: 428mm
    Handlebar drop:: 55mm
    Saddle height: 620mm

    Is it possible to connect the tubes to accommodate this? Yes. Am I willing to do it? No.

    The 428 seat to bar dimension stands out to me. Andy.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    i can almost live with that reach but not with that setback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    The 428 seat to bar dimension stands out to me. Andy.
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by crumpton View Post
    i can almost live with that reach but not with that setback.
    If setback is from the tip of the saddle to the BB center the the 42mm is real close to what I use with a 67.5cm Bb center to top of seat height. If the setback is BB center to ST/TT center then the ST angle is in the mid 80s. But since no mention was made of the ST length I assume (yes I know what this word means...) the 620 is to the top of the seat.

    Any way about it the geometry of this frame would be a challenge. Andy.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    So Nick,

    where did those numbers come from? Are they from a fitting the prospective client received? Take-off from their current bike? What lead them to that conclusion?
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Bike would be a disaster. Front-center is 5cm shorter than would be responsible. Bike would handle poorly and have large amount of toe overlap if attempted with 700c wheels. Its likely this amount of saddle setback is not necessary for a rider this size.

    Is this about what you were thinking Nick?

    disaster.png
     
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