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Thread: The Knowledge 1.0 - Bike Frame Design Process

  1. #21
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillaume View Post
    Thanks Richard for this thread. It's also good to know that I'm not alone thinking that foot length have it's place in the equation.

    Not to make things more complicated but does mass distribution is taken in account when you build a bike?

    Thanks!
    I guess - but I never think of it like that. Math must hurt my head. If I could articulate sense/sensing, you'd have the equations you're probably asking about.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    It's 58cm - 62cm depending on the commission atmo.
    Do you adjust fork rake at all depending on FC, or do you keep them the same? I seem to recall you use a shorter trail than most.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by -HvA- View Post
    Do you adjust fork rake at all depending on FC, or do you keep them the same? I seem to recall you use a shorter trail than most.
    Yes - it's all connected. Smaller bicycles get smaller choices, and larger bicycles grow accordingly atmo.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    Yes - it's all connected. Smaller bicycles get smaller choices, and larger bicycles grow accordingly atmo.
    Smaller trail or rake? (ie do you try to keep trail consistent regardless of FC)
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by -HvA- View Post
    Smaller trail or rake? (ie do you try to keep trail consistent regardless of FC)
    I never measured the trail, so I guess it's not on the dance card. I mean, I'm aware it exists, and I've read other wax endlessly about it, but it's something that doesn't make my radar. See the image. Those measurements are the only distances from which I add and subtract fractions in order for the position in question to overlap with what I feel is a workable frame design in that size range.

    Later - time to ride atmo.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Thanks for the straightforward answers, enjoy your ride!
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    contact points make a lot more sense to me than the voodoo that most other fit 'systems' seem to be made of. way too much math in the first frame i built

    many thanks for sharing this
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    contacts points are the fit 'coordinates' used to design the frame. they are not instead of fit systems and math but rather the result(however one gets there).

    someone/how has to establish those points one way or another.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by crumpton View Post
    contacts points are the fit 'coordinates' used to design the frame. they are not instead of fit systems and math but rather the result(however one gets there).

    someone/how has to establish those points one way or another.
    Agreed - I think. The rider needs an efficient position and the bicycle he is on also has to not only accommodation it, it must work well as a vehicle. My overarching reality check moments always involve deferring to frame design rather than position. I will never compromise the bicycle's handling or related characteristics in order to find a way to have a rider with fitness or flexibility issues, or even one who is afraid to descend fast or pedal in a corner - I will not "borrow" from the frame design pile and give it to the "rider position" pile if I think the ride will suck. That said, it's all, and always, plotted out as dots connected with lines rather than summoning up angles and using that convention as a driver. At the end of the day, it all can be measured and articulated, but linear measurements are literal to me while the angle thing is a foreign language atmo.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    How do we all come to these contact points from a distance, as in not from personal contact with client?
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by crumpton View Post
    contacts points are the fit 'coordinates' used to design the frame. they are not instead of fit systems and math but rather the result(however one gets there).

    someone/how has to establish those points one way or another.
    How often do you fit someone percentage wise you'd say? I'd imagine by the time people buy a custom, they've most often been riding for a while and already have a decent idea about where they want their contact points right?
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by -HvA- View Post
    How often do you fit someone percentage wise you'd say? I'd imagine by the time people buy a custom, they've most often been riding for a while and already have a decent idea about where they want their contact points right?
    I don't fit anyone atmo. At the most, if someone comes around and the ride they have looks effed, I just edit out the bad stuff and make sure I don't incorporate it into the commission. You have to understand, the entire concept of 'getting fitted' is not one I subscribe to. I mean - who in his right mind buys a bicycle like this (or like that, for that matter atmo...) and doesn't have a history of riding such that the important details have not been long since ironed out? And, if a cat doesn't know at all, and comes by anyway, then I use intuition, decide what he should have - since he can't - and we both get what we need.

    The fitting thing has worked its way into daily conversation because it preys on the insecurities of many who feel they are not capable of knowing what is right. Wind tunnel tests notwithstanding, I think a person can easily determine what works, and what is right - all he has to do is ride a lot.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by progetto View Post
    How do we all come to these contact points from a distance, as in not from personal contact with client?
    I am not sure what you mean. PS see my most recent reply; it may answer your question atmo.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Agree, but disagree. I think fitters have a place to fine tune body position to eleviate pain from bad body symmetry, particularly in the feet department and people with ongoing problems from injury or is that a totally different conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    I don't fit anyone atmo. At the most, if someone comes around and the ride they have looks effed, I just edit out the bad stuff and make sure I don't incorporate it into the commission. You have to understand, the entire concept of 'getting fitted' is not one I subscribe to. I mean - who in his right mind buys a bicycle like this (or like that, for that matter atmo...) and doesn't have a history of riding such that the important details have not been long since ironed out? And, if a cat doesn't know at all, and comes by anyway, then I use intuition, decide what he should have - since he can't - and we both get what we need.

    The fitting thing has worked its way into daily conversation because it preys on the insecurities of many who feel they are not capable of knowing what is right. Wind tunnel tests notwithstanding, I think a person can easily determine what works, and what is right - all he has to do is ride a lot.
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    Agreed - I think. The rider needs an efficient position and the bicycle he is on also has to not only accommodation it, it must work well as a vehicle. My overarching reality check moments always involve deferring to frame design rather than position. I will never compromise the bicycle's handling or related characteristics in order to find a way to have a rider with fitness or flexibility issues, or even one who is afraid to descend fast or pedal in a corner - I will not "borrow" from the frame design pile and give it to the "rider position" pile if I think the ride will suck. That said, it's all, and always, plotted out as dots connected with lines rather than summoning up angles and using that convention as a driver. At the end of the day, it all can be measured and articulated, but linear measurements are literal to me while the angle thing is a foreign language atmo.
    Okay, maybe I'm looking a little deep here, but how do we separate the frame design pile from the rider position pile? Bottom bracket drop, frame seatpost setback, and possible front center measurements seem like they could cross into either pile... Don't these measurements help to define the frame design as well as position the rider? And to reference a post above, doesn't this help position the rider within the wheels? Are some measurements more important than others in the design hierarchy?

    thanks again!
     
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by progetto View Post
    Agree, but disagree. I think fitters have a place to fine tune body position to eleviate pain from bad body symmetry, particularly in the feet department and people with ongoing problems from injury or is that a totally different conversation.
    Frames, and all moving parts on them, are symmetrical; people are not. I understand the cleat interface is the root of most known problems, since bicycles have to be pedaled to move forward. I was around when a client and team mate of mine developed The Fit Kit as a way to minimize these issues. That experience evolved into fitting folks, too. So I get that connection and all the stepchildren that came from its loins. But - and I think I wrote this somewhere else recently - if a fitter wants to suggest that a saddle move up or forward, or that a different reach is needed, I will listen. Just don't tell me how to design a frame in order to achieve those results.
    Last edited by e-RICHIE; 04-30-2013 at 11:11 PM. Reason: spelling -
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Richard,

    This method is not dissimilar from the way I was taught. One question though...looking at your pic I see no method for locating the all important front-axle location (perhaps there is a locating screw underneath the apron). I imagine your forks all have the same span, but how are you actually measuring/setting front-center without this being a definable location?
    Last edited by Jason Musgrave; 04-30-2013 at 11:32 PM. Reason: content added
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by musgravecycles View Post
    Richard,

    This method is not dissimilar from the way I was taught. One question though...looking at your pic I see no method for locating the all important front-axle location (perhaps there is a locating screw underneath the rag)??
    My fixture has a rule embedded in it that shows me the final front center measurement should the back plate be
    locked down at any given point, with any number of other design elements altered along the way for any reason.
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Got it. Is that a Hydra?
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: How I Make These atmo -

    Quote Originally Posted by musgravecycles View Post
    Got it. Is that a Hydra?
    The one and only atmo. Best in the business (so far...).
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