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Thread: modern geometry / seat tube angle

  1. #21
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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    A new Ripley or FuelEx will be super fast on oldschool trails, you’ll just need to ride in a modern mtb posture and adopt modern weight shift techniques. The fact that you CAN’T replicate a road bike position on new bikes is what makes them so capable, but it also takes away a lot of the “steer with the hips and hold on” that makes is so fun to ride bikes inspired by Ugo DeRosa or Chris Chance off-road.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by suspectdevice View Post
    Don’t try to make them road bikes.
    Get a pair of modern trail clipless shoes where you can slam the cleats all the way back in the slots. You’ll need to do that anyway if you want to be able to descend with any conviction(or bloodflow to your calves).
    Hi Mickey, can you share some examples of modern shoes that allow this positioning? Thanks!

    - Long-time Sidi guy
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by sbornia View Post
    Hi Mickey, can you share some examples of modern shoes that allow this positioning? Thanks!

    - Long-time Sidi guy
    Any shoes w/ platform pedals.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    Any shoes w/ platform pedals.
    I made that move to flats pedals at the same time and couldn't be happier. It's one of the things that has really forced me to relearn how to ride.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
    I made that move to flats pedals at the same time and couldn't be happier. It's one of the things that has really forced me to relearn how to ride.
    I ride platforms on my road bike! Much better... I use the thinest, flexiest sole shoe i can find.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Are we saying that these new bikes have to be ridden without cleats ?

    I'm so far behind. But did a 4h ride this morning on my HT with old school geo and sidi shoes with XTR pedals. It worked ok !
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    No, but a Shimano me7 or gr9 will let the cleats get further back
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    Are we saying that these new bikes have to be ridden without cleats ?

    I'm so far behind. But did a 4h ride this morning on my HT with old school geo and sidi shoes with XTR pedals. It worked ok !
    Nah, that's not what I'm saying. Different horses for different courses.

    For me, basically it's this. If I'm riding off-road and the course/conditions lead to hours of spinning, climbing, cruising along I'm probably on all-road, CX-type, or XC MTB bike. And my position on the bike is probably more like a road bike and I'm in the saddle more. If I'm riding off-road in a more spirited way I'm probably on MTB that is fit with the aforementioned RAD approach and I'm rarely sitting on the saddle. Basically riding it like a big BMX bike, or DJ bike.

    At this point in my skills, it's better to not have my feet connected because it teaches me proper bike control; being clipped in allows for sloppy technique. At some point in skill development, the top of the class goes back to "feet connected to pedals". Check at the top of BMX and DH. Both are generating TONS of power in highly dynamic environments and having their feet connected ads some security. And in neither situation do those class of riders need help with promoting proper technique; it's been in their muscle memory for years.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    I got back into MTB after a 5-7 year pause earlier this year. I got a modern geo trail bike (YT Jeffsy) and I hated it. That hatred lasted for around the first three months and now I love it. I can't imagine going back. When I ride my vintage hardtail (Ibis Silk Ti) it's slower, more dangerous and just overall less fun.

    I also committed to riding flats with this new bike. It was also a rough transition but I have unlearned a lot of bad habits that 20 years of riding with clipless taught me.

    I am all in on modern geometry. I don't know how far it makes sense to push it (Pole, Nicolai) but middle of the pack modern trail geometry is a total winner even if it takes a while to adjust riding style.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
    Nah, that's not what I'm saying. Different horses for different courses.

    For me, basically it's this. If I'm riding off-road and the course/conditions lead to hours of spinning, climbing, cruising along I'm probably on all-road, CX-type, or XC MTB bike. And my position on the bike is probably more like a road bike and I'm in the saddle more. If I'm riding off-road in a more spirited way I'm probably on MTB that is fit with the aforementioned RAD approach and I'm rarely sitting on the saddle. Basically riding it like a big BMX bike, or DJ bike.

    At this point in my skills, it's better to not have my feet connected because it teaches me proper bike control; being clipped in allows for sloppy technique. At some point in skill development, the top of the class goes back to "feet connected to pedals". Check at the top of BMX and DH. Both are generating TONS of power in highly dynamic environments and having their feet connected ads some security. And in neither situation do those class of riders need help with promoting proper technique; it's been in their muscle memory for years.
    Yeah I guess it looks like I am at the point where learning all this is not really worth it for me. A bit like trying to learn snowboarding after 40 years of skiing.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Like Flowers posted- if you want to be clipped in on a bike with a modern seat tube angle, buy some gravity-oriented trail shoes. If they “look like a Sidi”, they probably don’t have cleat slots that are long enough to work super well.
    I’m currently enamored with the Specialized 2fo‘s with the double boa setup, but almost every shoe manufacturer has proper trail shoes now.

    And yeah, I definitely enjoy casual trail riding on flat pedals a bunch on new bikes. Plenty of grip from the bike and an oval chainring makes climbing on flat pedals wicked fun!
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    It sounds like most people posting in this thread think the new geo is the best for just about every circumstance. As in not depending on where you ride? Can y'all elaborate about whether you think it's a horses for courses scenario or these things really do rule in all circumstances? Like someone pointed out, some bikes are fun because they are hard to ride. I don't want to spoil my local trail by bulldozing it every time I get out there. do you have to ride quote un quote major terrain to enjoy? Ideas?
    Last edited by zambenini; 11-04-2019 at 01:22 PM.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    1. Get off internet.
    2. Talk to shop employees who ride your local trails.
    3. Demo new bike.
    4. Decide for yourself.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

  14. #34
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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Sorry to be blunt. Just have to deal with customers all day who are fixated on a “new” thing they can’t wrap their head around but haven’t/ won’t ride the thing.

    Don’t think of a bike as two fixed triangles with a fixed seat height. “Climbing” positions should be thought of with the bike tilted, front wheel higher than the rear. That’s how you’re gonna climb it, right?

    Seat angles aren’t too steep. 76 degrees isn’t too steep. Given all the other stuff. Too steep? We’re not there yet.

    Head angles aren’t too slack, given a steep seat angle, long front center, all the other stuff. Too slack? We’re not there yet either.

    Be honest with yourself about whether you’re trying to 2019 mountain bike or 2019 grind gravel. Because they make bikes for both. Just may not look like what you’re used to.

    The new bikes are better. Go ride them. Please buy locally. Or from me.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

  15. #35
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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    1) You have the all the information that you need on the internet (Forums, reviews etc...)

    2) Order from Competitive Cyclist or any on-line retailer and avoid the judgement from the shop rats (you can get that on-line) and avoid the "if we don't have it you do not need it line or even better we can order it have it shipped here and you can come back and pick it up in 7-10 days" You call after 10 days and the 16 yr old forgot to place the order.*

    *this was way back in 2009 - I am sure things have changed :
     

  16. #36
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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    The new bikes are better. Go ride them. Please buy locally. Or from me.
    Chase, I trust you - I just want the record to reflect that my next bike will not go within 150 miles of anywhere with a chairlift and to have it confirmed that I'm still barking up the right tree.
     

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by zambenini View Post
    Chase, I trust you - I just want the record to reflect that my next bike will not go within 150 miles of anywhere with a chairlift and to have it confirmed that I'm still barking up the right tree.
    out of curiosity, are you thinking hardtail or full suspension? I'd answer your previous question differently depending on where you are, what your aspirations are and how much travel you're thinking about.
    Sean Chaney
    www.vertigocycles.com
    a peek behind the curtain

  18. #38
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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by VertigoCycles View Post
    out of curiosity, are you thinking hardtail or full suspension? I'd answer your previous question differently depending on where you are, what your aspirations are and how much travel you're thinking about.
    I have always leaned hardtail. I would consider FS if I didn't think there' be a penalty going uphill and if it was more mountainous here. I live in Durham NC - we actually have a pretty decent amount of trails here, almost ~200ish miles in the RDU metro area. No major elevation change, but you can get over 100 feet of climbing per mile on just a handful of our trails. In general though, singlespeed was how I have ridden - we have some newer flowy stuff, some berms and hoop-de-doos, as well as some old school rocky/rooty/twisty/ stuff. Big elevation, huge descents, only happen if I drive about 2-3 hours west.
     

  19. #39
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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    Quote Originally Posted by zambenini View Post
    I have always leaned hardtail. I would consider FS if I didn't think there' be a penalty going uphill and if it was more mountainous here. I live in Durham NC - we actually have a pretty decent amount of trails here, almost ~200ish miles in the RDU metro area. No major elevation change, but you can get over 100 feet of climbing per mile on just a handful of our trails. In general though, singlespeed was how I have ridden - we have some newer flowy stuff, some berms and hoop-de-doos, as well as some old school rocky/rooty/twisty/ stuff. Big elevation, huge descents, only happen if I drive about 2-3 hours west.
    That sounds similar to some of the riding in MD. I don't think you'd be at any kind of disadvantage on a modern hardtail but personally speaking, I wouldn't want to ride a longish travel full suspension bike on those trails...there's no need and you end up working pretty hard on low angle technical sections.
    Sean Chaney
    www.vertigocycles.com
    a peek behind the curtain

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    Default Re: modern geometry / seat tube angle

    I just rode the 2020 Tallboy. Couple caveats: I was riding an L not the XL I would likely need in their size range and my first test lap on the (tiny but interesting) track at the shop was with the stem way high in hybrid bike territory before they begrudgingly agreed to slam it for me.anyway it improved a lot with the stem down but it felt long! Wandering front end. Not used to this kind of thing. I understand the 2020 Tallboy is even more slacked out than the 2019 so maybe the previous model would be less weird feeling to me.

    I also ran into the challenge of forgetting to shift because I am just not used to that. But I will say the suspension in the back was nice. Didn't feel that bad, and I was impressed with how it handled log rollers and a little techy rooty section. A lot actually. But, I am not convinced yet. Gonna try my buddy's Fuel, too.
     

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