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Thread: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

  1. #21
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Who gives a shit is your head angle is 3 degrees slacker on climbs if your 3 degrees steeper seat tube angle, longer reach, shorter stem, etc keep your weight over that front wheel?

    My new bike is "long and slack" in that it has a 500mm reach, 64 degree head angle, and at 1277mm wheelbase. I went up from 140mm/115mm travel to 160/140. It 5 pounds heavier than my last bike. And I've switched to flat pedals.

    I'm PRing everything. Up and down.

    It's not marketing. Its not the entire bike industry pulling a fast one. It's evolution. Bikes are better now than they've ever been. And they'll be better next year.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    It's not marketing. Its not the entire bike industry pulling a fast one. It's evolution. Bikes are better now than they've ever been. And they'll be better next year.
    ^THIS^

    Bikes are constantly evolving for the better. The component spec alone today is lightyears away from what I had access to when I started mountain biking in 1989/90. Mountain bikes have really come into their own, especially within the last 5 years.
    Kristofer Henry : 44 BIKES : Made to Shred™
    www.44bikes.com · Flickr · Facebook · Instagram

  3. #23
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    How are you liking your sentinel? I am demoing one this weekend, any setup tips?

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    Who gives a shit is your head angle is 3 degrees slacker on climbs if your 3 degrees steeper seat tube angle, longer reach, shorter stem, etc
    keep your weight over that front wheel?

    My new bike is "long and slack" in that it has a 500mm reach, 64 degree head angle, and at 1277mm wheelbase. I went up from 140mm/115mm travel to 160/140. It 5 pounds heavier than my last bike. And I've switched to flat pedals.

    I'm PRing everything. Up and down.

    It's not marketing. Its not the entire bike industry pulling a fast one. It's evolution. Bikes are better now than they've ever been. And they'll be better next year.
     

  4. #24
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    This is interesting, given the discussion here:

    Naked's framebuilder notes on a prototype
    Bob Spooner
    Departing from
    East Hampton, CT

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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    How are you liking your sentinel? I am demoing one this weekend, any setup tips?
    It's definitely not for everyone. It's got big wheels, a slack head angle, and it's long. It wants weight on the front wheel, so you've got to be confident. If you just kinda get back a bit and cruise you'll find yourself off-trail or washing out the front wheel. It's not a timid or lazy man's bike. You've got to be willing to manhandle it a bit. I wouldn't say it makes you a better rider. I'd say it requires you to be a better rider. If you're on your A-game, you'll be rewarded with stability on steeper, chunkier terrain.

    If we're going with the snowboard analogy (I don't ski because I'm a fun guy that likes to do fun things and have fun) its like a long, stiff board with old-school tip-to-tail camber. If you're inattentive, there will likely be moments where you'll find yourself on the ground. But if you know how to ride it, you won't want to ride anything else.

    And as for climbing, the steeper seat angle means that with my saddle height (I'm 6'3'') my feet are beneath me instead of in front of me, and my ass isn't out over the rear hub. The reach keeps my weight where it needs to be so the front wheel doesn't wander. The effective longer rear end makes it less prone to looping out. This sensation of riding between the wheels must be what all the average-height people have been raving about for so long. So despite the additional weight and travel, it climbs great.

    I put a 2.5 Minion DHF WT and a 2.4 Minion DHR2 WT on the bike. I think they suit the bike's intentions way more than the 2.3s that come stock.

    If you like a more neutral handling bike, I loved the Giant Reign despite it having a 73 degree seat angle the wrong size wheels. Or if you're looking for more of an all-arounder, the Ibis Ripmo climbs better and is more fun in the flat, twisty stuff. But I don't know why they gave it the reduced rake fork, effectively steepening the 66 degree head angle, or why a bike like that needs 160mm travel.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    (I don't ski because I'm a fun guy that likes to do fun things and have fun) ...
    PM sent.
     

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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by MDEnvEngr View Post
    This is interesting, given the discussion here:

    Naked's framebuilder notes on a prototype
    mine is very similar geo

    I think it works
     

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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    Who gives a shit is your head angle is 3 degrees slacker on climbs if your 3 degrees steeper seat tube angle, longer reach, shorter stem, etc keep your weight over that front wheel?

    My new bike is "long and slack" in that it has a 500mm reach, 64 degree head angle, and at 1277mm wheelbase. I went up from 140mm/115mm travel to 160/140. It 5 pounds heavier than my last bike. And I've switched to flat pedals.

    I'm PRing everything. Up and down.

    It's not marketing. Its not the entire bike industry pulling a fast one. It's evolution. Bikes are better now than they've ever been. And they'll be better next year.
    The only qualification I've got to this is that this is totally true if you're riding mountain bikes in mountains. Lots of people don't ride mountain bikes in mountains.

    I've got one of these bikes now, and I don't bring anything else when I'm riding up & down. Don't miss my other bikes at all, the present is far far better than the past and your advice is dead on.

    But when I'm riding the twisty narrow flat trails near where I live the bike is a bit of a pig. Slow to wrap around corners, not super fun to get out of the saddle and sprint on, just feels "heavy", which is not about how much it weighs. I often ride my rigid fat bike on local trails just because it jams out better in the flat stuff. A 68˚ - 67˚ hardtail 29er with a dropper and a 120mm fork is perfect on those trails. Of course, this bike would have been a DH bike 10 years ago, it's worth mentioning.

    So much of this depends on where you live and the trails you ride.

    But no matter where you ride killing off the 70˚ head angle, road bike top tube & stem lengths took way too long & got in the way of fun for decades. I can't picture ever riding a stem longer than 70mm again in the woods.
     

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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    It's definitely not for everyone. It's got big wheels, a slack head angle, and it's long. It wants weight on the front wheel, so you've got to be confident. If you just kinda get back a bit and cruise you'll find yourself off-trail or washing out the front wheel. It's not a timid or lazy man's bike. You've got to be willing to manhandle it a bit. I wouldn't say it makes you a better rider. I'd say it requires you to be a better rider. If you're on your A-game, you'll be rewarded with stability on steeper, chunkier terrain.

    If we're going with the snowboard analogy (I don't ski because I'm a fun guy that likes to do fun things and have fun) its like a long, stiff board with old-school tip-to-tail camber. If you're inattentive, there will likely be moments where you'll find yourself on the ground. But if you know how to ride it, you won't want to ride anything else.

    And as for climbing, the steeper seat angle means that with my saddle height (I'm 6'3'') my feet are beneath me instead of in front of me, and my ass isn't out over the rear hub. The reach keeps my weight where it needs to be so the front wheel doesn't wander. The effective longer rear end makes it less prone to looping out. This sensation of riding between the wheels must be what all the average-height people have been raving about for so long. So despite the additional weight and travel, it climbs great.

    I put a 2.5 Minion DHF WT and a 2.4 Minion DHR2 WT on the bike. I think they suit the bike's intentions way more than the 2.3s that come stock.

    If you like a more neutral handling bike, I loved the Giant Reign despite it having a 73 degree seat angle the wrong size wheels. Or if you're looking for more of an all-arounder, the Ibis Ripmo climbs better and is more fun in the flat, twisty stuff. But I don't know why they gave it the reduced rake fork, effectively steepening the 66 degree head angle, or why a bike like that needs 160mm travel.
    Chase, have you noticed needing less stack height/rise at the bars relative to your other bikes?
     

  10. #30
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Quote Originally Posted by sonny View Post
    Chase, have you noticed needing less stack height/rise at the bars relative to your other bikes?
    On the Sentinel, the saddle height, bar height, and distance from the saddle to to the bars is within millimeters of my Yeti 4.5. It's my placement between the wheels that makes the bike such a better fit for me.

    The Giant Reign has a much lower stack. I think its like 3 cm lower than most bikes in the category (also, I'm talking XLs here). I did feel like with the 495mm reach, 73 degree seat angle, and the low stack of the Reign, I was really able to stretch out on climbs. Distance from saddle to bar like "whoah." It was so roomy that there was plenty of room to slam the saddle forward- which is necessary on that bike- and still feel like I had plenty of room to move. The downside of the lower stack is that you're that much further forward on steep descents. I think it fit more like an all-arounder with really long travel. But a couple of spacers and a set of higher rise bars would get your hands higher and weight a little more back if you so desired. I prefer the roll-over capabilities of a 29er, but I would've been really happy with the Reign had I wound up getting it.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

  11. #31
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Might as well mention that my XL Yeti 4.5 is listed in the classifieds and would be a really great bike for someone closer to 6'0'', or perhaps taller if they're willing to run a 70mm stem.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

  12. #32
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Thanks for the input. I currently have a RIP 9 with an angleset to a 67* head angle and want more room to drive the front wheel, I also have a hardtail for tight flat trails. Sentinel and Ripmo are both high on my list along with the Smash, but the Sentinel is the only one with local demos. I rode a wreckoning last year and though 470 reach was too short.

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    It's definitely not for everyone. It's got big wheels, a slack head angle, and it's long. It wants weight on the front wheel, so you've got to be confident. If you just kinda get back a bit and cruise you'll find yourself off-trail or washing out the front wheel. It's not a timid or lazy man's bike. You've got to be willing to manhandle it a bit. I wouldn't say it makes you a better rider. I'd say it requires you to be a better rider. If you're on your A-game, you'll be rewarded with stability on steeper, chunkier terrain.

    If we're going with the snowboard analogy (I don't ski because I'm a fun guy that likes to do fun things and have fun) its like a long, stiff board with old-school tip-to-tail camber. If you're inattentive, there will likely be moments where you'll find yourself on the ground. But if you know how to ride it, you won't want to ride anything else.

    And as for climbing, the steeper seat angle means that with my saddle height (I'm 6'3'') my feet are beneath me instead of in front of me, and my ass isn't out over the rear hub. The reach keeps my weight where it needs to be so the front wheel doesn't wander. The effective longer rear end makes it less prone to looping out. This sensation of riding between the wheels must be what all the average-height people have been raving about for so long. So despite the additional weight and travel, it climbs great.

    I put a 2.5 Minion DHF WT and a 2.4 Minion DHR2 WT on the bike. I think they suit the bike's intentions way more than the 2.3s that come stock.

    If you like a more neutral handling bike, I loved the Giant Reign despite it having a 73 degree seat angle the wrong size wheels. Or if you're looking for more of an all-arounder, the Ibis Ripmo climbs better and is more fun in the flat, twisty stuff. But I don't know why they gave it the reduced rake fork, effectively steepening the 66 degree head angle, or why a bike like that needs 160mm travel.
     

  13. #33
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    Where I ride, it's twisty, pretty flat with a few short punchy climbs. No long seated climbs and no long fun downhills. Enjoying the contemporary Spark FS but wanted a bit more tire width for the hard tail and maximum nimble. @steve garro is tackling this fun project and this lil' hardtail will roll on 2.5s. Contemporary for XC and twisty stuff. that'll ride (handle) light.
    Details at =Coconino Cycles
     

  14. #34
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    Default Re: bikes getting longer, I am not getting taller

    for the record, im also going longer. its more fun and im feeling much safer and more stable especially in the rough, or at warp speed.

    heres a datapoint, if that helps.

    i've been riding an XL SB5.5 ( all-be-it with 40mm cut off the seat tube to fit a 150mm dropper and a 2' angleset in the head tube and flat pedals)
    stem at 50mm, renthal shape 10mm rise bar and and 10mm of spacers under the stem for stem/head tube clearance. id like to get a little lower up front to get on the front wheel a little earlier. and it could be way way longer ( ive ridden the XL and the L sentinel, and the XL patrol, from transition and had a whip around the carpark on the POLE evolink 140 Large.

    and im going exploring, ill be building a new bike ( well, a new front triangle)... 63'HTA, with a 160mm 40mm of bb drop (140mm travel at the back) 510 reach 625 stack 460 chain stay. 7'ish seat tube angle and a 200mm dropper. this is 29x2.4 DHF downhill casing territory. big rowdy single pivot (and a stolen turquoise swingarm), ill pop some photos in FNL as it comes along. it'll be my second full suspension frame so dont expect wonders ;-)

    for reference im 6'2" with short-ish legs and race in proper mid foot cleats on the road/track/CX and ride exclusively flats on my mountain bike, which im not racing. i ride lots of what we call "grade 4 or 5" tracks, is this a universal grading system, i dont know. A normal road bike for me has 400mm of reach 570mm of stack , saddle height around 77cm, depending shoes. ill run a 140 or 150mm stem in 6' or 10' with a short reach deda bar. with the saddle approaching 0mm setback, and the front end slammed. i find for me its about opening up my hips and getting a flat back out of the saddle when the gas is on without getting cramped up. almost like a "track bike" fit?

    theres a couple opinion pieces on the new school geo thing that might be worth a listen if your after more; i found them informative in one way or another;

    Size matters part 3: why bicycle geometry sucks - MBR

    Cy Turner of Cotic Bikes on Modern Mountain Bike Geometry - Downtime Podcast

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