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Thread: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Is there a "medium" so to speak? or is this type of body/diet adaptation an all-or-nothing?
    Matt Moore
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Aside from my go-to homemade bars and nut butter, I've got a few recipes if you're interested - they're all vegan, which may or may not be appealing, but I'm happy to share any of the following: grain-free granola, flaxseed waffles, no-bake bars, flaxmeal porridge, hemp-heart pudding... the list goes on but in short, I try to do things that can be made in advance since, like most cyclists, I tend to ride in the morning when the roads are empty and I can be done before work. No one wants to be cooking pancakes at 5h30..


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellafab View Post
    Is there a "medium" so to speak? or is this type of body/diet adaptation an all-or-nothing?
    It's been well-shown that you can increase your utilization of fat as a fuel source through dietary control, but most of the benefits require full conversion.
    "Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants."


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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    So what is your take on fruit? Is it a sugar/carbs source to be avoided or good natural vitamin sources?
    Guy Washburn

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by guido View Post
    So what is your take on fruit? Is it a sugar/carbs source to be avoided or good natural vitamin sources?
    Definitely a good and necessary vitamin source. I don't really believe in multivitamins and have never had my bloodwork show the need for them - in the words of a former doctor of mine, "vitamin supplements are a great way to make expensive piss." Eat a diverse diet full of vegetables and fruit and you're all set.

    But to actually answer your question: just work them into your diet with the knowledge that yes, they are more carbohydrate dense than a lot of other food sources. Choose the ones that are low in net-carbohydrates (ignore total carbohydrate, it's a relatively useless figure). Of course, each individual's metabolism, size and nutrient-timing will determine exactly how many grams of net carbs you can get away with per day and still stay ketogenic, but some examples of low-carbohydrate fruits are apricots, avocados (also an excellent fat source), rhubarb, strawberries, raspberries, kiwi and cherries.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octave View Post
    Choose the ones that are low in net-carbohydrates (ignore total carbohydrate, it's a relatively useless figure).
    This is something i wanted to ask.

    Total Carbohydrate - Fiber = Net carbohydrate

    is my understanding correct?

    Next, how do you kind of gauge say how much net carb is in a banana? A cup of broccoli? Something not really measured is what I'm curious about. A phone app is what I've read people using.

    But i bring this up because I remember reading about bananas being very high in carbohydrates/polysaccharide until it gets almost over ripe, speckled with brown is when some sort of conversion happens and the poly turns to monosaccharide.
    justin rogers.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by EightySixer View Post
    This is something i wanted to ask.

    Total Carbohydrate - Fiber = Net carbohydrate
    Total carbohydrate - non-digestible carbohydrate (i.e. fiber + sugar alcohols) = net carbohydrate. The latter of those two non-digestible carbohydrates is why you see a lot of marketed protein bars filled with sugar-alcohols. There's nothing wrong with them, and they still hit taste-buds in a sweet way, but apparently they give some people digestive issues. Never had a problem myself, but I rarely encounter them in packaged food so take that with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by EightySixer View Post
    Next, how do you kind of gauge say how much net carb is in a banana? A cup of broccoli? Something not really measured is what I'm curious about. A phone app is what I've read people using.
    When I briefly tracked my diet closely, I used nutritiondata.self.com which is pretty comprehensive, then I just did the math myself. There are plenty of apps that people like though, like myfitnesspal. What you use depends on how complex and diverse your diet is. For me it was relatively easy because I don't make a lot of 20-ingredient dishes and I basically never eat out, but I can imagine it gets pretty complicated if you do either of those (especially the latter, save for major chain food which in some countries is legally bound to publishing that info).

    But i bring this up because I remember reading about bananas being very high in carbohydrates/polysaccharide until it gets almost over ripe, speckled with brown is when some sort of conversion happens and the poly turns to monosaccharide.
    Here's the oft-cited paper you're talking about (or that most people are referring to when they talk about this). As you've probably noticed, unripe bananas (and indeed, unripe fruit in general) is a lot less sweet than ripe fruit. During ripening a lot of the carbohydrates are converted into more readily digestible sugars. In theory then, if you wanted to take advantage of the nice vitamins, phytonutrients etc. that are in fruit without spiking your blood sugar you could eat green bananas and other unripe fruit.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    This thread is awesome.

    Where I first saw that was from the Elaine Gottschall book "Breaking The Vicious Cycle" outlining her specific carbohydrate diet. I think I still have some residual mentality from the year I followed that plan left over in my mental assessments of good/bad.

    Great information, thank you.
    justin rogers.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    so is bulletproof coffee legit for breakfast?
    -Dustin

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by dashDustin View Post
    so is bulletproof coffee legit for breakfast?
    Yes with a caveat or two...

    - If you do this for breakfast in place of something more nutritionally diverse, you're probably missing out on a good opportunity to get some vitamins, phytonutrients..etc. If you're counting calories, having 400kCal of butter in place of say, 400kCal of nuts/seeds/oil/fruit combination, leaves you with 0 fiber, very little or no vitamins and nutrients (although some studies have shown that grass-fed butter is higher in some nutrients than your average butter) as opposed to an opportunity to give your body some love.

    - Fat diversity is important, and butter is very high in saturated fat, which is not great in high excess. It's not the demon it was once made out to be, but it's also not great in massive quantities.

    - In fairness I've only tried this as a vegan, so I can't comment on whether or not it tastes good with quality, grass-fed butter, but I find it to be pretty far from palatable... I love good coffee, and there are few more direct ways to ruin it than sticking it in a blender with butter.


    ... that all being said, caffeine + fat + MCT oil will qualify as a keto-friendly way to start the day, especially if you're the kind of person who doesn't enjoy or can't stomach, much in the morning.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    pithy infographic (find the studies referenced and explore) to stir the pot.

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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    so, i haven't had a stomach virus/ bacteria related illness since middle school. that would be 21 years ago. i've never once called in sick. i was hit with a bug last week Wednesday, that took me out of work Thursday, and today is the first day that I've felt normal. i was finally getting used to the drastically reduced carb intake for the first time in my life.

    now, surely....there's no reason for me to think that the illness and change in diet are related, is there?
    -Dustin

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Interesting - I would venture to say they are unrelated, as ketogenic diets are actually shown to increase immune function and have been considered (and are under trial) for the treatment of certain immune disorders. High-carbohydrate intake is actually quite detrimental to the immune system, but that's another story.

    That being said, major dietary changes can often shock one's system and weaken things temporarily. I would still venture to say, as it sounds like you're a relatively healthy individual otherwise, that these are unrelated. Did you start eating different foods, or just switch the proportions you were eating?
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octave View Post
    Aside from my go-to homemade bars and nut butter, I've got a few recipes if you're interested - they're all vegan, which may or may not be appealing, but I'm happy to share any of the following: grain-free granola, flaxseed waffles, no-bake bars, flaxmeal porridge, hemp-heart pudding... the list goes on but in short, I try to do things that can be made in advance since, like most cyclists, I tend to ride in the morning when the roads are empty and I can be done before work. No one wants to be cooking pancakes at 5h30..


    It's been well-shown that you can increase your utilization of fat as a fuel source through dietary control, but most of the benefits require full conversion.
    If you'd be willing to share your recipes I'd love to try them.

    I've been eating a low carb or slower digesting carb diet for quite a while. It's great, but I am always tweaking things. As I've started riding more (150+ miles per week) I do feel like I need more carbohydrates to sustain big efforts. I'm around 150g a day right now, would like to try getting down to the 50g/day range and see how it feels on the road.
     

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Honest question... I know it might sound odd... but what effect does this have on body temperature or at least perceived body temperature?


    I did something similar or along the lines to whats described in this thread and my perception was that I was hot. for a few weeks until I adjusted back I was burning up hot and it wasn't particularly warm out as most from our area can attest to.
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinned View Post
    If you'd be willing to share your recipes I'd love to try them.

    I've been eating a low carb or slower digesting carb diet for quite a while. It's great, but I am always tweaking things. As I've started riding more (150+ miles per week) I do feel like I need more carbohydrates to sustain big efforts. I'm around 150g a day right now, would like to try getting down to the 50g/day range and see how it feels on the road.
    Here are two of my favorites from that list. There are a couple of bar recipes somewhere on VSalon from me, as well.

    Flax waffles

    Ingredients
    - 2C ground flax (I like golden)
    - 1T baking powder
    - 1t salt
    - 2,5T Chia + 1C water, mixed and allowed to sit for 5min (or replace with 5 eggs if not vegan)
    - 1/2C almond milk
    - 1/3C coconut oil, melted
    - 2t cinnamon

    Combine flax, baking powder and salt and whisk until evenly mixed. Separately, combine chia eggs (or egg-eggs if not vegan), almond milk and coconut oil in a blender and mix until frothy. Combine dry (flax etc.) with wet (chia/milk/oil) and stir gently until evenly mixed and let rest for 5-10 minutes in the refrigerator. Stir in cinnamon and laddle into pre-heated waffle iron. Makes 5 waffles. If freezing, allow to cool and freeze between parchment sheets.


    Hemp-seed porridge

    Ingredients
    - 1C almond milk
    - 1/2C raw hemp seeds (shelled)
    - 1T chia seeds
    - 1T flax meal
    - 1T maple syrup or honey
    - 1t vanilla extract
    - three-finger pinch of salt

    Combine all ingredients in a small sauce-pan and place over medium heat. Bring to a boil, then reduce to a simmer and whisk until thick (3-4min). Eat.

    Grain-free granola

    Ingredients
    - 6T coconut flakes
    - 1,5C raw almonds, roughly chopped
    - 1,25C raw pecans, roughly chopped
    - 1,25C raw walnuts, roughly chopped
    - 3T chia seeds
    - 1T flax seeds, finely chopped (or use flax meal)
    - 5T maple syrup, or honey
    - 1T cinnamon
    - 0,5t salt
    - 3T coconut oil

    Combine coconut, nuts and seeds. Over medium heat, combine syrup, cinnamon, salt and oil in a small sauce-pan. Cook until melted and evenly mixed, then pour over the dry ingredients. Spread evenly on a large baking sheet lined with a silpat (or parchment). Bake for 25min (or until golden) at 165C, stirring once at 10ish minutes. Let cool completely and store in an airtight container for a week or so (or just eat it all).
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    I gave it a go -- minus the Vegan part. I dropped 20 lbs (~186->~166) at 5'11" and went 14% to 8% fat. My 5s power is down about 100 watts, but my TP is up about 10-20 watts. The 10-20 Watts combined with dropping two babies worth of weight has had a marked increase in my climbing ability. The best part is just my ability to chain PR on climbs one after another without having to suck down a slow drip of sugar to not feel like garbage. ATMO & YMMV
     

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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    I have been doing to keto thing (without the vegan thing too...) inspired by this thread. I have lost 18 pounds (208->190) at 6'1".
    Running and hiking with nothing to eat on a 6 hour effort but a single Justin's almond butter squeeze pack with zero bonk.

    A deep thanks for the inspiration!
    Guy Washburn

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