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Thread: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octave View Post
    I do still race, though not nearly as frequently as I used to and rarely in conditions with a field sprint. I don't race crits and I don't race CX (the latter largely due to the absence of a large contingent here). Last year I podiumed at several road races in my category, mostly by simply riding people off of my wheel. I can hold tempo all day long and can climb endlessly without blinking, which is exactly when the puncheurs fall off the back. In 180+km road races in the mountains, a steady concerted effort will often leave you alone at the finish. Granted, these are no grand-tour races, but they are competitive fields nonetheless.

    The reason I do it is largely because the greatest pleasure I take in my relationship with my bike these days is in long, explorative, solo riding. My relationship with cycling at the moment is mostly about being out in nature, traveling to new and interesting places, and just enjoying myself. The upshot of a diet like this (though as you can read above, it mostly started by accident) is that I can go out on a Sunday with hardly anything in my pockets and rock out 200km in the mountains without stopping for anything other than water. When I do the same with friends, they carry 1500kcal of bars, gels, fruit, drink mixes...etc. and still come home with barely enough energy to make it to the couch and pass out. I come home from the same ride and work in the garden with my wife, go to the beach, and read a book.
    This has been my experience with fat-adapted riding as well, although you are putting in way more miles and are doubtlessly faster and overall fitter than I am! I do use the superstarch products on longer rides, but I'm not convinced that even that is necessary.
    Andy Cohen

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octave View Post
    In 180+km road races in the mountains, a steady concerted effort will often leave you alone at the finish.
    Zabriskie ate paleo for a season or two also. Zabriskie being a time trialist with sustained efforts, I can see why it would seem viable.

    I have never read a breakdown such as this, you are filling the gaps and connecting the dots from lapses in the dozens of other pieces and books I've read, and all the Fat Burning Man, Paleo Solution podcasts I've listened to.

    This is really good stuff, really good. Thank you for doing this.
    justin rogers.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    subscribed. I did it for a while, avoided the keto flu ... enjoyed the weightloss, only to change back (for reasons that escape me ATM).
    Randy Larrison
    My amazing friends call me Shoogs.

    Blog post -- I don't think the heavy stuff...

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoogs View Post
    avoided the keto flu ...
    Shoogs how did you avoid the ill feeling the first few weeks? I am having trouble getting back on the beam now with no medical reason to do so. I am getting 3, 5, 4 days and folding up like a cheap tent. I keep having to start over and it really sucks this back and forth nonsense.
    justin rogers.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    I started my morning taking an endurolyte type cap. Used a little extra salt and drank more mineral water...so maybe all that helped/worked or maybe I just got lucky.
    Randy Larrison
    My amazing friends call me Shoogs.

    Blog post -- I don't think the heavy stuff...

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Wait, you have to cut, wine, beer, fish, meat.... This is going to be tough
     

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    This is the most interesting topic I've seen on Vsalon in a while.
    I am intrigued.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    If you are not doing efforts over the second lactate turnpoint, a low CHO diet might be ok -- Octave has covered those bases. However, if you are calling on CHO as a fuel source, you need to eat CHO. I'm not completely convinced that it's a good diet for long sub-threshold or threshold efforts either, since both of those call on a good deal of glycogen, though not nearly at the rate of VO2 or lactate tolerance efforts.

    I rarely bring food on rides -- only if it's longer than 4 hours, and I don't do rides longer than 4 hours anymore. My strategy has been to eat a decent amount of CHO 3-5 hours before training (on a weekend when I can ride at 8 or 9 AM, say 150-200g between 5 and 6AM), a moderate amount after to replace glycogen (75-100g), then, like Octave, salad and veggies and meat after that. After the glycogen window shuts, I try to keep the CHO to a minimum. I don't go crazy with fat -- it's only ~20-25% of daily calories. I do, however, think the timing of CHO is important if you're not training a holy ton (like 20hrs/week) and want to stay lean. Get it in 3-5 hours before training, some right after, and then back off, and none within 3 hours of going to bed (on weekday rides, I'll eat a banana right after, but then salad and meat -- my weekday rides finish up about 2 hours before bedtime).

    Some folks burn fat a little better than CHO, some burn CHO a little better than fat -- the nutritionists and physiologists are fighting this one out currently, but there is some evidence to suggest that you can get a snapshot of what your metabolism likes by looking at your lipid profile. Mine says CHO efficient, but that doesn't mean hogging out on bagels and pasta (which usually just means you're getting too many calories), and I don't do energy bars or gels.

    I could see varying CHO by what type of effort you're doing that day -- below the first lactate turnpoint, maybe low CHO. For me, that would be recovery days. Most of my rides are in the Lydiard "bread-and-butter" zone (75-80% of FTP), with a couple of days a week of either sub-threshold (the Lydiard "3/4" effort) or VO2 work -- so I'm still burning a bit of stored muscle glycogen. I think that still staying in that 60% of daily intake being CHO is a good idea, but, yeah, it's a question of what kind (lower glycemic) and when (before riding, not during, a just enough after to replenish).
    Robert Kendrick


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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by DOOFUS View Post
    ...there is some evidence to suggest that you can get a snapshot of what your metabolism likes by looking at your lipid profile. Mine says CHO efficient...
    How do you determine what your lipid profile is?
     

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by defspace View Post
    How do you determine what your lipid profile is?
    get blood drawn

    look at hdl, ldl, and triglyceride levels

    from a site that pimps this view:

    Determine if you are carbohydrate efficient
    This metabolic type runs most efficiently on a heavy-carbohydrate, low-fat diet. If your HDL is below 45, LDL is above 140, HDL-to-LDL ratio is above 3.5 and triglycerides are below 100, you have a carbohydrate-efficient metabolism.

    Determine if you are fat- and protein-efficient
    This metabolic type runs best on a low-carbohydrate, high-protein and moderate fat diet. If your HDL is above 55 with LDL below 110, with an HDL-to-LDL ratio below 3.5 and triglycerides above 120, you likely are fat- and protein-efficient.

    Determine if you are dual-efficient
    Your numbers may not fit into the two main types. If your HDL is above 45 with LDL below 115, HDL-to-LDL ratio is below 3.5 and triglycerides below 120, you have a dual-efficient metabolism. In this case, your metabolism runs best on a balanced diet with moderate percentages of carbohydrates, fats and proteins.
    Robert Kendrick


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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Thanks.
    Finally, that silly workplace "wellness" program does something for me. I've got those numbers!

    I'm "dual-efficient." A balanced diet. Who'da thunk it, eh?
     

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    so...question. pal of mine has been on this for about a year. dropped substantial weight, while picking up his riding. he wasn't a big guy to begin with, and rode quite a bit before. the amount of weight lost is not due to simply riding more. i think he's riding more because he's dropped the weight.

    that said, what happens if he wants to start racing crits? or road races with short, punchy climbs? is he screwed? if he goes back to a normal diet, will the weight pack back on?
    -Dustin

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    He will haver to fuel his training and racing efforts if he wants to go fast.
    He won't necessarily gain back weight- just has to be mindful of what he is eating.

    Quote Originally Posted by dashDustin View Post
    so...question. pal of mine has been on this for about a year. dropped substantial weight, while picking up his riding. he wasn't a big guy to begin with, and rode quite a bit before. the amount of weight lost is not due to simply riding more. i think he's riding more because he's dropped the weight.

    that said, what happens if he wants to start racing crits? or road races with short, punchy climbs? is he screwed? if he goes back to a normal diet, will the weight pack back on?
     

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Somewhat relevant, I did the PR Bar diet in 1994 in an effort to lose weight and improve climbing. 40/30/30 carbs/protein/fat and the fat had to come from non saturated sources and the carbs as much from vegetables as possible. I'd do 30-50 mile training rides and eat half a bar during the ride and the rest after. At first I felt like I was weak but after a few weeks I felt pretty good as long as it was a longer sustained effort. I could rotate through a paceline at 25-28 mph for hours and take my normal pulls. I also lost about 15 pounds and got down to just under 180 and for those that know me, that's really thin for my build. I was climbing well, staying with lead groups, and it was all good in road races, especially if I could get in a break and work with a small group. What hurt me was group sprints and criteriums. I was a guy who could go to the front of a crit in the waning laps and turn 30-32 mph to burn out a pack, I couldn't do that. I was a negative split time trial rider, that suffered. It was like I had a governor on my efforts. Looking back, I probably could have adapted my training to focus on higher efforts, but it was like a valve controlled my efforts and it would only open so far.

    At the end of the season I went back to a regular diet with more bread and pasta and put about 10 pounds back on. The next season I got a handful of state medals, I just didn't climb as well.
    I heart burnt bikes.

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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    if you're asking your body to burn glycogen, you have to give it glycogen to burn

    I've never seen any controlled study that establishes you can train the body to burn fat rather than glycogen to fuel efforts at or over 4mm of blood lactate (FTP and above).
    Robert Kendrick


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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    I was listening to a keto podcast a few weeks ago, the guest was talking about eating sushi and staying in ketosis.

    He drizzles MCT oil on his sushi and said that kind of negates the rice and provokes the body to still produce ketones.

    I have been taking swigs of MCT oil along with apple cider vinegar every morning for a couple months now, though I'm curious as to how MCT oil kind of counter acts the carbohydrate intake.
    justin rogers.

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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by DOOFUS View Post
    However, if you are calling on CHOcolate as a fuel source, you need to eat CHOcolate.
    My diet strategy.
    Will Neide (pronounced Nighty, like the thing worn to bed)

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by EightySixer View Post
    I was listening to a keto podcast a few weeks ago, the guest was talking about eating sushi and staying in ketosis.

    He drizzles MCT oil on his sushi and said that kind of negates the rice and provokes the body to still produce ketones.

    I have been taking swigs of MCT oil along with apple cider vinegar every morning for a couple months now, though I'm curious as to how MCT oil kind of counter acts the carbohydrate intake.
    I'm not with my HD full of papers at the moment, but there was an interesting study which came out about a year ago showing that the glycogen response to white rice was significantly muted by the addition of high-MCT coconut oil. The researchers found that it was even more significant if the rice had cooled, due to a reaction between the starches in the rice released during cooking and the oil. The protocol was essentially to add a teaspoon of the oil for each cup of cooked rice, immediately after cooking, then let it cool. Measuring blood-glycogen responses showed that this totally muted the impact of the rice and actually prevented absorption of some 20% of the caloric content as well. Their goal was to address the growing obesity crisis in asia, but I can see how the same underlying reaction would apply to reducing glucose-induced spikes and therefore help one stay in ketosis.
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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    i'm trying to slide into this, and it's proving to be quite difficult. and eye opening. i didn't realize how crazy high my carb intake was. even down to the fruits I preferred. breakfast during the week seems to be the hardest nut to crack. time constraints, not actually being hungry right away...
    -Dustin

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    Default Re: Fat-adapted training, anyone?

    Breakfast is definitely the hardest...
    Guy Washburn

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