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Thread: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

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    Default Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Thinking about putting Campy 12spd on one of the familyís bikes.

    In the 11spd era there was an accidental outbreak of sanity as i understand it, because you could effectively use Campy and Shimano cassettes interchangeably. Now that Campy has turned it up to 12 that wont work.

    So even though Campy says you donít need a new freehub (kudos) if you have a Shimano one you do?

    To add a potential complication itís an R45 with a Shimano 10spd freehub that needs to be sorted. Whatís the recommended approach with that?
    Colin Mclelland

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colinmclelland View Post
    Thinking about putting Campy 12spd on one of the family’s bikes.

    In the 11spd era there was an accidental outbreak of sanity as i understand it, because you could effectively use Campy and Shimano cassettes interchangeably. Now that Campy has turned it up to 12 that wont work.

    So even though Campy says you don’t need a new freehub (kudos) if you have a Shimano one you do?

    To add a potential complication it’s an R45 with a Shimano 10spd freehub that needs to be sorted. What’s the recommended approach with that?
    buy a new wheel, or MAYBE convert the hub, although kings force you to modify campy 12 cassettes on their 9-12 speed campy bodies

    you are now 2-3 generations behind, and any fix that might work will not do said group justice.

    shimano doesn't make a 12 speed road group (yet), but with divergent chain design between 12sp sram road, shimano mtb, and campy road, any hope of cassette interchangeability is long gone
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by andrew flowers View Post
    buy a new wheel, or MAYBE convert the hub
    I half expect to do that, but you factor a decent wheel along with the cost of Record 12 and i start to get all apathetic about the whole thing. We could become 4-5 generations behind...
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    I think I have reached the endpoint for my own bikes - 11-speed Shimano. It works amazingly well and is readily available and likely will remain available for years. For now, at least, I can't see myself with Campagnolo or Sram 12-speed. Maybe Campagnolo EPS 12-speed but there is certainly nothing imminent in my plans.
    Last edited by Saab2000; 1 Week Ago at 06:06 AM.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Thanks Saab. Shimano mechanical is so good Iím not sure i would have gone with Di2 had i had mech 11 spd first, but the satellite shifters with Shimano Di2 at least exploit what can be done.

    Campy EPS seems like a missed opportunity to me. Iím not sure i see the point of just doing what already happens, but doing it electronically.

    This bike is on SRAM 10spd, so it needs a new freehub to go to 11spd anyway...
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    I chased every bleeding-edge increment forward up to 11v. It all worked swell until it didn't. UT bearings required twice yearly replacement, Ergo springs had kittens, STI chewed cables like licorice whips, chainring bolts corroded, assholes exploded. I decided to punt, and have settled at 9v. I ride year round in NE and now never give my bicycle, or the mechanisms that make it go, a second thought.
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    If you ever want to try 12spd, you know where I am - the saddle height will need a tweak and we may not be able to do much about the reach; but it'll be enough to help you decide.

    Chorus 12spd should be available here soon (it's doing my head in that it is taking so long to become available in Aus.) and that should be a decent saving over Record.

    I'll be putting Chorus mechs, chain & cassette on my Cervelo road disc bike now that I've moved the 12spd SR over; and all future chains and cassettes will be Chorus because SR is the only other option; and the cost just isn't worth it.

    One (minor) point to note is that the SRAM Eagle chain links work flawlessly with the Campag 12spd chains. That's the cost of a specific chain tool saved at least.

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Thanks Rich. Excuse my Campy ignorance, but is Chorus the rough equivalent of Ultegra or 105?
    Colin Mclelland

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Basically, yes.

    Depending who you talk to, the following applies:

    Super Record = top of the pile
    Record = Dura-Ace = SRAM Red
    Chorus = Ultegra = SRAM Force
    Potenza = 105 = SRAM Rival

    Chorus has always felt more in line with Ultegra and Force than 105 and Rival - which is also reflected in the price.

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    I personnally put Chorus on the same level as Dura-Ace. It is much lighter than Ultegra, while having top notch shifting quality and reliabiliy. And this year it has even one more cog than DA and Ultegra. I would put Force inbetween Ultegra and Dura-ace too. It is 200gr lighter than ultegra too, shifts very well, the only reason I wouldn't put it on the same level as dura-ace is the finish which may not be strictly on par with DA. The Sram Force 1 setup on my gravel/commuter never missed a bit and its disc brakes have a much better feeling than the shimano I have on my road bike. I must say I don't understand the harsh words it gets from shimano users.

    Not that it matters much, these classifications are not really useful.

    Note: after checking the weight of the 12s campy groupset, I find it crazy to see how one single cog add so much weight in a cassette.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 1 Week Ago at 03:09 AM.
    --
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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    Note: after checking the weight of the 12s campy groupset, I find it crazy to see how one single cog add so much weight in a cassette.
    Two reasons:

    The extra cog is 29 or 32 teeth
    The 12 speed cassettes are entirely steel - 11 speed Record had 3 titanium cogs, Super Record had 6. Great for dropping weight, not so great for durability.
    Lou D'Amelio
    Bucks County PA

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Campagnolo lifelong fan here...

    My sense is that they should have continued to refine, refine, and further refine their 10-speed.
    The good news is there is NO WAY they will risk introducing a 13-speed group to the marketplace.
    We will likely have many years of easy and convenient 12-speed replacement parts availability.
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    In my totally biased opinionated POV unburdened by riding recent DuraAce or other facts, I'm in the Chorus ~ DuraAce camp. And firmly entrenched in the Chorus H11 mechanical shift world (with a 5-arm crankset just because).
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    I built up a bike with Ultegra 8000 on a whim and I'm a die hard campy guy. It works so well, that bike sees most of the miles because I know a cassette is $50 and a chain is $25. A wheelset built with 6800 hubs and 32 spokes is like butter. Not Record butter, but maybe that store brand butter that is just the same.
    Weight Doper

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    What's are the views on front shifting in Campy 12speed?

    I jumped forward about 6 years when i adopted DA9000, as well as climbing up several levels. Still, I actually laughed the first time i did a front shift. And then I looked down just to check that a shift had actually happened!

    I've read a couple of reports lately that the front shift on Campy 12spd is not totally awesome? Clearly I struggled through my pre DA9000 days, but still. Any views...
    Colin Mclelland

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Certainly no issues here. Shimano efficient? Perhaps very marginally not, but it's damn close - and I think many forget that Campag has more defined trims than Shimano or SRAM so anyone not used to that might view it as an issue or being less efficient than Shimano.

    It has to be setup properly, which involves their own in-line adjuster that you're supposed to use (not actually essential IMHO, but it's useful for fine-tuning anyway), but any front mech needs to be setup properly - and at least 12spd Campag doesn't involve the fiddly cable routing and adjustment of the new (9100 & 8000) Shimano mechanical stuff. Frankly, it's an absolute piece of cake to setup compared to the new Shimano stuff.

    I'll take ease of setup and better overall function (and more comfortable levers) over such a marginally less efficient shift any day.

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by RichTheRoadie View Post
    Certainly no issues here. Shimano efficient? Perhaps very marginally not, but it's damn close - and I think many forget that Campag has more defined trims than Shimano or SRAM so anyone not used to that might view it as an issue or being less efficient than Shimano.

    It has to be setup properly, which involves their own in-line adjuster that you're supposed to use (not actually essential IMHO, but it's useful for fine-tuning anyway), but any front mech needs to be setup properly - and at least 12spd Campag doesn't involve the fiddly cable routing and adjustment of the new (9100 & 8000) Shimano mechanical stuff. Frankly, it's an absolute piece of cake to setup compared to the new Shimano stuff.

    I'll take ease of setup and better overall function (and more comfortable levers) over such a marginally less efficient shift any day.
    new shimano is ludicrously easy once you use their seemingly backwards setup system
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Thanks Rich. Thatís good to know. I still have unpleasant memories of trying to agree terms with the thumb shifters, but itís not for me so I just need to get over that!

    IĎve set up the new Shimano mechanical recently. I must have done it wrong because it didnít seam that hard...
     

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colinmclelland View Post
    I‘ve set up the new Shimano mechanical recently. I must have done it wrong because it didn’t seam that hard...
    Oh it's not hard - it's just not logical or intuitive.

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    Default Re: Has the period of sanity been quashed?

    Not sure if this bit of info is of any value here. But you can go to 11 speed Shimano using their 11-34 cassette without having to swap your free hub. That HG800 11-34 cassette fits on a 10 HG freehub.

    Maybe a Shimano group instead Campag?? May make it a bit easier.

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