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Thread: Di2 battery not holding charge

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    You need to start eliminating components.

    AT HOME:
    Change the battery to 100 percent, unplug a component and leave for two days. What's the battery level?

    Write down what you're doing and what battery loss you're experiencing. It will be clear very quickly.

    Start with the easy ones: shifters (satellite if you have any), then derailleurs. Junction boxes are harder but you can eliminate a junction box and a cable at once by "jumping" around them.

    IN A SHOP:
    My first move would be to make a fresh wiring loom and plug all components into it. My guess is that will solve the problem, but if not I'd use the fresh loom and then start removing components.

    Honestly this isn't hard but is time consuming.
    Yep. Takes forever but the tool can only test draw issues in components. Faulty wires/b junction will pass. I start by visually inspecting wires, then as Tristan said replace items until the problem stops, then work backwards until it happens again. In my experience, the wire from battery to b junction, b junction, and wire from b junction to shifter/a junction fail the most. The other place to look is around your stem interface to see if a cable has been kinked/crushed

    This is a long, drawn out process. If you donít have one the silca hirobel is very useful with these repairs, as you can pull whatever components you want without issue

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by DBordewisch View Post
    Did anyone wipe and reload the software on the battery with the SM-PCE02? It only takes a few minutes.
    Wipe as in clean? If yes, I did that before it was brought to the shop.

    As for the other thing, I'll ask if this was done.

    Thanks.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    You need to start eliminating components.

    AT HOME:
    Change the battery to 100 percent, unplug a component and leave for two days. What's the battery level?

    Write down what you're doing and what battery loss you're experiencing. It will be clear very quickly.

    Start with the easy ones: shifters (satellite if you have any), then derailleurs. Junction boxes are harder but you can eliminate a junction box and a cable at once by "jumping" around them.

    IN A SHOP:
    My first move would be to make a fresh wiring loom and plug all components into it. My guess is that will solve the problem, but if not I'd use the fresh loom and then start removing components.

    Honestly this isn't hard but is time consuming.
    Thanks, Tristan. I actually started yesterday by fully charging the battery and unplugging the right shifter. I think I'll give it 3 days before I check.

    I reckon I should top up the charge in-between each component too so I'll have the same starting point for each check?
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by andrew flowers View Post
    Yep. Takes forever but the tool can only test draw issues in components. Faulty wires/b junction will pass. I start by visually inspecting wires, then as Tristan said replace items until the problem stops, then work backwards until it happens again. In my experience, the wire from battery to b junction, b junction, and wire from b junction to shifter/a junction fail the most. The other place to look is around your stem interface to see if a cable has been kinked/crushed

    This is a long, drawn out process. If you don’t have one the silca hirobel is very useful with these repairs, as you can pull whatever components you want without issue
    I would have thought that those bits that are all internal would be the least likely ones to fail... Oh well.

    I don't have the cables going through the stem, but I take your point about checking for kinks. If one developed in the two years since installation, it would be somewhere in the downtube. (The external bits have been checked a few times for kinks.)

    Thanks.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    Thanks, Tristan. I actually started yesterday by fully charging the battery and unplugging the right shifter. I think I'll give it 3 days before I check.

    I reckon I should top up the charge in-between each component too so I'll have the same starting point for each check?
    I would. You're lucky that the discharge is fast enough that it will be obvious.

    I'd write down exactly what you do as when you get to eliminating individual cables it gets harder to remember and easier to stuff up your experiment

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Not the physical act, but use the Shimano tool and add the software again.

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by DBordewisch View Post
    Not the physical act, but use the Shimano tool and add the software again.
    Ah, I got it.

    The funny thing is, I finally said goodbye to Windows PCs right around the time the bike was completed... only to end up with the bike equivalent of a Windows PC.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    Ah, I got it.

    The funny thing is, I finally said goodbye to Windows PCs right around the time the bike was completed... only to end up with the bike equivalent of a Windows PC.
    If you're saying that Di2 is like Windows then I'm going to have to disagree...it's far more like Osx or a mobile OS. Generally speaking Di2 works *flawlessly* with zero problems and perfect shifts every time. I'm not talking about "good" shifts, I'm talking about perfect. Every. Single. Time. The only time Di2 doesn't shift incredibly is when the chain is worn.

    The only issue with any electronic groupset is when things go wrong. Rather than a gradual degradation from "good" to "poor" shift quality you go from "perfect" to "doesn't shift".

    I've had electronic shifting on nearly every bike I've owned in the past 5 years and I can't go back. I bought a mountain bike with XT 12 speed mechanical and couldn't believe how crappy it is compared to 11 speed Di2. Out of the 5 or 6 bikes with electronic shifting I've had a few issues but on the whole I've spent hours less maintaining my bikes with Di2 and had the benefit of better, more ergonomic, and more consistent shifting regardless of weather conditions or maintenance routines.

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    If you're saying that Di2 is like Windows then I'm going to have to disagree...it's far more like Osx or a mobile OS. Generally speaking Di2 works *flawlessly* with zero problems and perfect shifts every time. I'm not talking about "good" shifts, I'm talking about perfect. Every. Single. Time. The only time Di2 doesn't shift incredibly is when the chain is worn.

    The only issue with any electronic groupset is when things go wrong. Rather than a gradual degradation from "good" to "poor" shift quality you go from "perfect" to "doesn't shift".

    I've had electronic shifting on nearly every bike I've owned in the past 5 years and I can't go back. I bought a mountain bike with XT 12 speed mechanical and couldn't believe how crappy it is compared to 11 speed Di2. Out of the 5 or 6 bikes with electronic shifting I've had a few issues but on the whole I've spent hours less maintaining my bikes with Di2 and had the benefit of better, more ergonomic, and more consistent shifting regardless of weather conditions or maintenance routines.
    Without getting into the details of Windows vs Apple analogy or general characterisation, I am having a Windows-type saga, so I'm happy to agree to disagree. My experience with my first Shimano group set is what it is. What to say.

    Anyway, the battery was completely drained after 72 hours, which is a record. Now being recharged. Tomorrow I will unplug the left shifter.

    A quick question: do I leave the right shifter unplugged or do I plug it back in? I'm guessing the latter but wasn't certain.

    Thanks.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    I would keep the unplugged stuff unplugged

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    I would keep the unplugged stuff unplugged
    Ok, thanks. Done.

    What was odd this morning is that after having charged the battery overnight, it was only 4/5 full. I charged it again for another 2 hours, and it is now 5/5.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    I think you have or are close to just having the battery replaced. Is it still under warranty?

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by DBordewisch View Post
    I think you have or are close to just having the battery replaced. Is it still under warranty?
    The shop put in a new battery with a new wire going to junction B. Weird, right?
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    If it's the new purple coloured battery then I doubt it's an issue.

    I'll wager a toe clip strap that it's the junction-B or one of the wires. The components themselves don't tend to cause these sorts of issues.

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    If it's the new purple coloured battery then I doubt it's an issue.

    I'll wager a toe clip strap that it's the junction-B or one of the wires. The components themselves don't tend to cause these sorts of issues.
    Yes, it's a purple.

    Yeah, one NOS Binda, but we seem to be betting on the horse... Given what's already been done, I think we've narrowed it down to those candidates. Hopefully, it will be identified during the current procedure.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    You are well on your way but here is a very old trouble shooting sequence that might save you some time - it is used in software debugging all the time.

    The general idea is that you remove (or add) 50% of a group at a time to narrow things down in clusters. This might be a little tougher in this case because there aren't that many parts. On the other hand it means this process works faster.

    Rather than removing one piece a time, remove 50% at a time.

    It goes like this:
    Remove 50% of the related parts and keep them as a group off to the side.
    Test
    If the problem persists, remove 50% of the remaining parts and keep them as a group off to the side in another group
    Test
    If the problem persists, remove 50% of the remaining parts and keep them as a group off to the side in another group
    Test
    ...you get the point, you do this until the issue is gone.
    When the issue is gone, go back to the last group of parts and grab 50% of that group and put them back on
    Test

    You are testing in clusters and each time you test you shrink the cluster by 50% and therefor quickly narrowing down the possible items. This is exponentially faster than doing one item at a time.


    In the case of a Di2 system that has front D, rear D, front shifter, rear shifter, battery, and wiring harness, we will need to keep the battery and wiring harness in place throughout the test which leaves the front/rear d and front/rear shifters. The above protocol could work like this:
    Unplug both shifters (50% of the parts)
    Test by using a fully charge battery and checking on it for X days.
    If the issue is gone you know it is one of the two shifters (50% of that group of 2 shifters is 1 shifter ).
    Plug one back in.
    Test by using a fully charge battery and checking on it for X days.
    If the issue is still gone, you know it is the other shifter that is causing the issue. You can plug the offending shifter back and and retest to double check.

    If the issue persists after removing both shifters, then you remove one of the derailleurs (50% of the remaining group).
    Test by using a fully charge battery and checking on it for X days.
    If the issue is gone then it is very likely that the derailleur that was removed was the offending part.
    If the issue persist, then the other derailleur has to be removed.
    Test by using a fully charge battery and checking on it for X days.
    If the issue is gone then it is very likely that the derailleur that was removed
    If the issue persist, then it is something in the wiring harness or the battery.
    Then you can do the same thing (removing 50%) with wires and junction boxes until you narrow it down.
    Brian McLaughlin

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Thanks, Brian. I'm familiar with the QC procedure you mention. Yes, it can produce significant efficiencies when dealing in large volumes.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    And at the end, put the suspect part back on, to make sure it breaks the system.
    (good for bike parts, not really recommended for large online backup power systems.)

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Bewheels View Post
    You are well on your way but here is a very old trouble shooting sequence that might save you some time - it is used in software debugging all the time.

    The general idea is that you remove (or add) 50% of a group at a time to narrow things down in clusters. .
    With a large sample size this works really well, however assuming a 'regular' Di2 bike with only 4 components (2 shifters without satellites and 2 derailleurs) then I'm not sure it creates an advantage?

    Best case with removing one component at a time is a single test. Worst case is three tests.

    By doing 50% of components at once the best case is two tests and worst is still three tests.

    Plus add one extra test to confirm the dud component in either case.

    In either case - Once you confirm all the external components are working correctly the wiring and junction boxes are a nightmare to debug as without pulling everything out of the bike it's difficult to replace a single wire or a single junction box. This is why I think in a shop setting the best thing to do is replace the entire wiring loom first and check - this is essentially your 'remove 50%' test right off the bat to narrow down either external or internal components.

    Either way every time I've tried to do this by memory I end up getting confused. Take notes of what you remove, when, and what battery drain you get :-)

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    Default Re: Di2 battery not holding charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    With a large sample size this works really well, however assuming a 'regular' Di2 bike with only 4 components (2 shifters without satellites and 2 derailleurs) then I'm not sure it creates an advantage?

    Best case with removing one component at a time is a single test. Worst case is three tests.

    By doing 50% of components at once the best case is two tests and worst is still three tests.

    Plus add one extra test to confirm the dud component in either case.

    In either case - Once you confirm all the external components are working correctly the wiring and junction boxes are a nightmare to debug as without pulling everything out of the bike it's difficult to replace a single wire or a single junction box. This is why I think in a shop setting the best thing to do is replace the entire wiring loom first and check - this is essentially your 'remove 50%' test right off the bat to narrow down either external or internal components.

    Either way every time I've tried to do this by memory I end up getting confused. Take notes of what you remove, when, and what battery drain you get :-)
    Unless you are running satellite shifters most bikes have six wires and one junction box that can't be drain tested through the e tube app. Grabbing an extra 1600mm wire and replacing your loom one wire at a time will be faster than almost anything else at this point

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