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Thread: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    This morning there was a shooting on the group ride I regularly do on Wednesdays. I'm coming down with a cold so I decided to do an easy spin this morning instead, but when I got down to Key Biscayne the roads were shut down.

    Miami Herald Article

    Details are still unclear, but an altercation between a guy who often rides his motorcycle alongside the group taking photos and videos and one of the cyclists led to the cyclist being shot and in critical condition and the motorcyclist being detained. The fact that one of them was carrying while going out to enjoy a summer morning and that the altercation escalated to a shooting says a lot about our dysfunctional relationship with guns.
    Shit Matthew. I'm sorry to hear that.

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    This morning there was a shooting on the group ride I regularly do on Wednesdays. I'm coming down with a cold so I decided to do an easy spin this morning instead, but when I got down to Key Biscayne the roads were shut down.

    Miami Herald Article

    Details are still unclear, but an altercation between a guy who often rides his motorcycle alongside the group taking photos and videos and one of the cyclists led to the cyclist being shot and in critical condition and the motorcyclist being detained.
    Jesus! Glad you missed the ride Matt. I don't speak Spanish, anyone want to translate the gist of what they were arguing about? That seemed to go from friendly to f*cked pretty dang fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    The fact that one of them was carrying while going out to enjoy a summer morning and that the altercation escalated to a shooting says a lot about our dysfunctional relationship with guns.
    And how dysfunctional some people are. I know cyclists that carry when they ride because because of interactions they've had with drivers in the past.

    Surely someone in that group had a GoPro or something, right?
    Last edited by dgaddis; 1 Week Ago at 10:51 AM.
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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Please talk to the cyclists who feel the need to carry on their ride, as thats one step short of criminal itself. I have a no guns in my boat or on my rides policy, flat out.
    If you dont plan to shoot someone, why would you carry a gun? If you do plan to shoot someone, what the actual fuck is your problem?
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    I grew up shooting. My Dad taught me how to shoot a rifle around 8 years old. I had a BB gun and would shoot empty can and have one pump fights with friends. Yes, we shot each other in the woods, one pump rule, sometimes broken. I got a 22 and so on and so forth. Spend my childhood shooting targets.

    As I got older, I inherited a few long guns, a shotgun, and still have my BB gun and 22 from my early youth. I never bought any of these guns. I have never been required to be licensed, register anything, nothing. As far as the world knows, other than here now, I don't own a gun. I do. They are all safely stored and locked.

    I would gladly register them, turn them in, whatever. I only have them all because I don't really know what else to do with them. I rarely go shooting. I would be solely interested to keep my 22 based on pure nostalgia. It's a single round pee shooter. Still dangerous as it is a gun but hardly an assault weapon.

    But realistically, I don't really have a need.

    My point is, I had to do nothing to have what I have.

    I have a license to drive my car. I have a license to serve beer at the store. I have no license or certification to have guns. Just a random guy who has a more than needed amount of guns that the world has no record of.

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilliox View Post
    Please talk to the cyclists who feel the need to carry on their ride, as thats one step short of criminal itself. I have a no guns in my boat or on my rides policy, flat out.
    If you dont plan to shoot someone, why would you carry a gun? If you do plan to shoot someone, what the actual fuck is your problem?
    There are times (commuting before daybreak or after sunset, or riding in isolated areas of some local parks) when I prefer to carry. I choose to live in a state that allows (and in fact licenses) that option. I don't feel as if I'm only one step from being a criminal, but I respect your right to think I am. There are people in this world who have noticed the five-figure price tags of modern high-end cycles, and don't mind engaging in violent behavior to acquire one (ostensibly to sell, as I don't see a lot of meth addicts on Effbuilder creations). I've had good luck with the Silca Impero regarding angry canines, but it seems feeble against full size humans with felonious intentions.

    I'm sorry we won't get a chance to ride together, but if we did, and nobody brandished a knife, lead pipe or gun at you/me/us, you'd never even know if I'd chosen to carry that day. It's not on my hip like I'm Wyatt Earp or something. In fact, nothing would make me happier than looking at that pistol in 50 years and noting its like-new condition due to lack of use (other than the corrosion from sweat, because that would mean I rode almost enough to justify my fancy frame).

    Social media and cable news would have us think otherwise, but reasonable, caring, kind, generous, honest and loving people really can differ on these topics. See? We're doing it right now...
    -Jasper

    "I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Of Dirk View Post
    There are times (commuting before daybreak or after sunset, or riding in isolated areas of some local parks) when I prefer to carry. I choose to live in a state that allows (and in fact licenses) that option. I don't feel as if I'm only one step from being a criminal, but I respect your right to think I am. There are people in this world who have noticed the five-figure price tags of modern high-end cycles, and don't mind engaging in violent behavior to acquire one (ostensibly to sell, as I don't see a lot of meth addicts on Effbuilder creations). I've had good luck with the Silca Impero regarding angry canines, but it seems feeble against full size humans with felonious intentions.

    I'm sorry we won't get a chance to ride together, but if we did, and nobody brandished a knife, lead pipe or gun at you/me/us, you'd never even know if I'd chosen to carry that day. It's not on my hip like I'm Wyatt Earp or something. In fact, nothing would make me happier than looking at that pistol in 50 years and noting its like-new condition due to lack of use (other than the corrosion from sweat, because that would mean I rode almost enough to justify my fancy frame).

    Social media and cable news would have us think otherwise, but reasonable, caring, kind, generous, honest and loving people really can differ on these topics. See? We're doing it right now...
    Its true, we differ on the topic.

    since we are discussing these things all civil like, why do you carry? if someone were to threaten you for your bicycle, would you kill them? shoot them in the knee? flash your piece in the hopes of them being frightened. do you think its worth killing someone for a bicycle? do you think its worth shooting a person in the knee for a bicycle? do you have insurance? are/were you law enforcement? have you had adequate training on the use of this weapon?

    i dont have a problem with people not agreeing, i have a problem with people thinking policy for everyone should follow suit with their own preference, not the safety of the majority. im not even saying my views represent the majority, they dont, or we would not have this problem in this country, we would be solving it, or never have had it in the first place. im obviously a minority with a minority opinion, thats how this all works right? democracy and freedom? the majority wins? oh wait.

    but yes, nothing personal at all, but now that i know you, if we ever ride ill be looking very hard at your baggy kit, and if theres a weird shape, im not riding

    i really am curious what you think carrying solves. if i didnt know you were carrying, what significance is carrying?
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilliox View Post
    i really am curious what you think carrying solves. if i didnt know you were carrying, what significance is carrying?
    Not speak for Jasper, but if he's like the folks I know that sometimes carry on a ride it's not to show off or to prove anything to others - it has nothing to do with you. The ones I know aren't open carrying, they're concealed carrying, and have permits to do so. It's there just in case someone does something crazy. Which is rare, but it does happen. It seems like it happened to Matt's group this morning.

    And as far as 'one step from criminal' - hell, aren't we nearly always one step from criminal?
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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Mass shootings are rare period......if you have a gun, live in a house with a gun or associate with people who own guns your chance of getting shot will go through the roof.

    If you own guns and have children the chances of them being shot are going to increase...

    What do you think would have happened if the cyclist(s) in Miami just pulled over and the let motorcyclist go by......

    What do you think will happen when a tired cyclist is who is pumped up on adrenaline attempts to wrestle his gun out of his back jersey pocket - (oh I am sure that you gun range enthusiast are also practicing live simulations so you know what it is like to pull a gun a live person and not a paper target) - I have a hard enough time to "draw" a Gu pack from my holster
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis View Post
    It's there just in case someone does something crazy. Which is rare, but it does happen. It seems like it happened to Matt's group this morning.
    As more details have come to light, it seems the motorcyclist was the one carrying. They got into a fight, perhaps one with history, and he lost his cool. And instead of punching a cyclist, he shot one. Seems to me the gun is what made this situation crazy.
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by mzilliox View Post
    Its true, we differ on the topic.

    since we are discussing these things all civil like, why do you carry? if someone were to threaten you for your bicycle, would you kill them? shoot them in the knee? flash your piece in the hopes of them being frightened. do you think its worth killing someone for a bicycle? do you think its worth shooting a person in the knee for a bicycle? do you have insurance? are/were you law enforcement? have you had adequate training on the use of this weapon?

    i dont have a problem with people not agreeing, i have a problem with people thinking policy for everyone should follow suit with their own preference, not the safety of the majority. im not even saying my views represent the majority, they dont, or we would not have this problem in this country, we would be solving it, or never have had it in the first place. im obviously a minority with a minority opinion, thats how this all works right? democracy and freedom? the majority wins? oh wait.

    but yes, nothing personal at all, but now that i know you, if we ever ride ill be looking very hard at your baggy kit, and if theres a weird shape, im not riding

    i really am curious what you think carrying solves. if i didnt know you were carrying, what significance is carrying?
    I don't mind discussing this at all. I've stated already why I sometimes carry. To elaborate, I'm not quite sure I can trust a violent felon to take my bicycle and leave me to go about my merry way. To quote a douchebag cheater, it's not about the bike. I do not think it's worth maiming or killing someone (or shooting someone in an extremity) for a bicycle, especially me. I do have insurance. I am not, nor have I ever been, law enforcement. And I've had adequate training. By the way, "flashing" a piece in my state is considered deadly force - waving a gun around down here if a reasonable person wouldn't be in in fear of that person's imminent demise is a one-way ticket to prison, as I believe it should be. I do not know what Oregon's statutes have to say on the subject.

    I'm not trying to be pedantic, I swear, but your point about majorities is exactly why this country isn't a democracy; the tyranny of the majority is real. Fundamental rights of minorities must be protected from majority sentiment, regardless of whether that sentiment is malicious or well-intentioned. And of course, the smallest possible minority is the individual. Our fine Constitution has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to guarantee an individual's fundamental right to self defense. Guarantee, that is, because a fundamental right can't be granted (or revoked). How individuals defend themselves is absolutely subject to regulation, and so far a five-round pistol is still well within the bounds of what this society (via its laws and the enforcement thereof) deems acceptable. I'm not invading Panama, for Pete's sake. But if that law changes, well, I guess I'll have to change with it. I'm not interested in armed rebellion. It saddens (and embarrasses) me that many gun owners portray themselves as would-be heroes in some epic showdown with the U.S. government. I believe that government is the people, and I'll live by the laws the people enact, though I'd certainly advocate for change via the legislative and judicial process if I felt a law were unconstitutional. I'm not a "cold dead hands" sort of chap, but I acknowledge regretfully that many are. I like them as little as you do, I promise.

    On your last point, this is where I take issue with the laws of my state, and several others that allow "open carry." I don't see the rationale, and I'd like it to be off limits for all but law enforcement. I don't want you, or anyone else, to know when or if I'm carrying. It draws attention, and of the kind I really don't want. The kind of people who do want that kind of attention, in my opinion, are among the least suited to own/carry a firearm. If you didn't know I was carrying, the most significant thing is that we had a great day. No one will ever know I'm carrying unless my life is threatened, and I become aware of that fact in time to react...which could be quite unlikely.

    On the other hand, I believe the uncertainty about who is/isn't carrying is a benefit. I believe it is part of the explanation for the fact that the overwhelming majority of mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones. The recent shit in the El Paso Walmart is certainly an exception, but overwhelmingly these "crazy" people elect - somewhat rationally for a "crazy" person - to attack innocent people in areas where the felon can be certain the law abiding types are defenseless.

    You stated you really are curious what I think carrying solves. I'll answer you honestly: I think it marginally increases my chances of going home to my wife if my life is ever threatened by a person who has decided to ignore the rules the rest of us agreed to live by. I am aware of related statistics, and under no illusions about my proficiency or odds - marginally increases my chances. I also have annual physical exams, try to exercise, and do my best to stay away from sugar. I understand studies indicate those who own/carry guns are more likely to be injured or killed by one, but I also understand those who get in salt water are more likely to be bitten by a shark than those who don't, and I'm arrogant enough to believe I can control my firearm better than most. I see the fallacy, kinda like everyone thinks their kid is above average, and only half of them are correct. But you asked, and I'm being forthright. I appreciate the chance to discuss with you. If I'm tardy in reply to any response, it's only because I need to get some work done. But before signing off for a while, I want to make it explicitly clear that I think firearms are too easy to procure in the U.S., and that I support much stricter enforcement of existing gun laws, and reform of others. I do not believe the status quo is acceptable, or inevitable.
    -Jasper

    "I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    As more details have come to light, it seems the motorcyclist was the one carrying. They got into a fight, perhaps one with history, and he lost his cool. And instead of punching a cyclist, he shot one. Seems to me the gun is what made this situation crazy.
    I'm at a loss for words on this one. I'm not surprised, but I'm at a loss. It reminds me of all the hot-head roadies that used to get pissy with one another and with drivers. To have a firearm added to that level of aggression/testosterone makes me want to stick to riding alone...in the woods...
    Jason Babcock

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    --- again.., explain to me the differance between an assult weapon and a weapon of mass destruction..!
    i am not interested in your familiarity with realtive to your militaty training nor your good intentions...
    "have you served in combat, killed with, loss men realtive too and been wounded with..??"
    if not.., you might want to relate too what is subjective within and objective fact..
    like piss'n in a blue surge wool suit.., feels warm and good to me for i am the only one relative too..
    ronnie
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    I think its changing. With each new shooting the odds increase that someone knows someone or knows someone who knows someone who got shot. That's the difference between not caring and caring for many people. Most of these people who care more about their guns than other people's lives will change their tune when its someone they know. -Mike G
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ron l edmiston View Post
    --- again.., explain to me the differance between an assult weapon and a weapon of mass destruction..!
    i am not interested in your familiarity with realtive to your militaty training nor your good intentions...
    "have you served in combat, killed with, loss men realtive too and been wounded with..??"
    if not.., you might want to relate too what is subjective within and objective fact..
    like piss'n in a blue surge wool suit.., feels warm and good to me for i am the only one relative too..
    ronnie
    this is a stupid pedantic discussion.
    the bottom line is those people looking to engage in a mass killing are purchasing ar-15's, ruger min 14 ak-47's and similar weapons that the vast majority of normal Americans regard as assault
    rifles and not hunting rifles. We had a working definition during the last assault rifle ban. I guarantee you go to the police and law enforcement and they will be more than happy to use the old or come up with a new working definition. And guaranteed the police do not want ar-15's to deal with since they are the ones risking their lives to protect the public
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    It is absolutely essential that non-gunowners relentlessly insult, harangue, and belittle entirely peaceful law-abiding gunowners to convince them, without recompense, to change. It is a proven negotiating technique that totally works.
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ron l edmiston View Post
    --- again.., explain to me the differance between an assult weapon and a weapon of mass destruction..!
    I'll try, just as soon as you define "assault weapon" in a way that doesn't make it functionally equivalent to a deer rifle. I can define "high-capacity magazine," though, and think they should be regulated.

    It's not pedantic. Definitions matter. And if you don't think they do, watch me define "weapon of mass destruction" in a way that includes a seven year old who hasn't gotten his vaccinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ron l edmiston View Post
    i am not interested in...your good intentions...
    Well with all due respect, Mr. Edmiston, you may consider the feeling mutual.

    Quote Originally Posted by ron l edmiston View Post
    "have you served in combat, killed with, loss men realtive too and been wounded with..??"
    if not..,
    And if I answer "yes" to all of your interrogatories, may I keep my pistol, sir? How many classes of citizens would you prefer?
    -Jasper

    "I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    this is a stupid pedantic discussion.
    the bottom line is those people looking to engage in a mass killing are purchasing ar-15's, ruger min 14 ak-47's and similar weapons that the vast majority of normal Americans regard as assault
    rifles and not hunting rifles. We had a working definition during the last assault rifle ban. I guarantee you go to the police and law enforcement and they will be more than happy to use the old or come up with a new working definition. And guaranteed the police do not want ar-15's to deal with since they are the ones risking their lives to protect the public
    -----------------------------------------

    i am out of this discussion relative to my lack of insight, knowledge and my personal crusade...
    ronnie
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    this is a stupid pedantic discussion...We had a working definition during the last assault rifle ban...
    I'm glad you mentioned the 1994 AWB. The FBI's crime statistics cast some doubt on its efficacy (well, that's not exactly true - actually they prove it was pointless). How do you propose revising it so that it will accomplish anything this time?
    -Jasper

    "I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Of Dirk View Post
    I'm glad you mentioned the 1994 AWB. The FBI's crime statistics cast some doubt on its efficacy (well, that's not exactly true - actually they prove it was pointless). How do you propose revising it so that it will accomplish anything this time?
    Have a link you can share? I've mostly heard it reported that the ban worked and mass shootings are on the rise since it expired. But if there's sound data to support a different conclusion, I'm all ears.

    For those keeping track, the cyclist shot this morning, where I ride everyday on the group ride I do often, died. Not surprisingly, the comments in the article are mostly about cyclists being annoying for riding in the road. I wholeheartedly believe we have a gun problem in this country. But there's no arguing we also have a people problem.
     

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    Default Re: We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    I wholeheartedly believe we have a gun problem in this country. But there's no arguing we also have a people problem.
    Not a productive combination, huh?
    Personally I'd choose to preserve the people and forsake the guns. (Even when I read comments like, "hell, aren't we nearly always one step from criminal?" about my fellow humans.)
    Others seem to disagree.
    GO!

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