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View Poll Results: Will you take the vaccine as soon as it is made available to your category?

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    157 84.86%
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    28 15.14%
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Thread: The Vaccine Thread

  1. #1061
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Most of what has happened in the last series of posts has been peppered with what borders on school yard name-calling. That’s unfortunate, unnecessary and carries the discussion away from the topic of masks and their role in the epidemic alongside vaccines or not vaccines. Which actually has been interesting.
    My apologies for contributing to that.

    Sino,my problem with your argument is that it appears to be trying to have it both ways. If droplets are important for transmission then you need to consider the effect of the mask on the droplets, not the gas in which they are exhaled. Droplets have momentum, until this point is addressed an argument fromfluid dynamics holds no force.

  2. #1062
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Here's an easy real world experiment that may illustrate my point. Take a source of gas borne miniature droplets: say a can of flyspray. Point it away from you and observe its dispersion pattern as it sprays.

    Now take an ordinary disposable face mask and hold it in one hand at a point where most of the spray will hit the mask but there is plenty of room above and below. Spray again and watch the pattern again.

    Even though we deliberately provided a generous leakage path, most of the spray droplets will be caught in the mask.

    Try it yourself and see.

  3. #1063
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    wow, I for on am amazed at the relative patience in the back and forth on masks, but find the basic arguments against masking to be lacking. There is so much data out there about the effect of masks, there is data on the work of breathing, (e.g. mask induced exhaustion), on the effect of various masks on PaO2, on the droplets captured, etc etc etc. This IS a novel virus, but as a particle in air, it isn't novel, there are dozens of studies in the last two decades looking at various types of masks for influenza and other respiratory illnesses and hazards.

    Right before I retired, I discovered the safety officer who worked for me had ordered and stockpiled many thousands of N95 masks. He was one of 2-3 guys who fit tested workers (mostly health care, but a few maintenance types). Total # of ALL employees was about 1200, and nowhere near half needed N95 fits. But it does show that IF you wanted to and planned for it, you could stockpile enough N95 respirator. THAT would be most effective, but a mask, even the simple surgical mask will capture a significant # of particles exhaled.

    Data isn't real-time instantaneous, but there is enough data out there, from this pandemic and many prior URIs outbreaks and studies, to show they do work. Not perfectly. But when there is a pandemic that kills people or has the impacts (non-death) capable of sidelining plants and even industries, well, you implement what does work, even if it is imperfect. Administrative, engineering, PPE, all fair and reasonable choices should be made.

    As has been pointed out many times, there are fellow humans who can't wear a mask, can't work from home, can't get a vaccine. They rely on those of us who can do those things to help break transmission cycles. I rode with my son today and we passed a true mansion-type of house, and he commented on the excess, and I replied (perhaps to simply) that this is the system we live in, you win, achieve, inherit wealth etc and it is yours to do with as with as you will. That isn't true for actions though--hence laws and regulations abound (this was right after some dick passed us on the left even after I'd signaled a left turn and had moved to the center of my lane, and then proceeded to run the stop at the next intersection).

    I am always going to be at a loss to understand why so many dig in their heels to not do things that can help others. Their take-home from 'do unto others' is beyond my understanding.

  4. #1064
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by beeatnik View Post
    And when businesses and workplaces begin to report clusters will you be ok with a mask and testing to gain admission?
    Businesses have the right to set the rules. I don' t think this is debatable. No laws are being broken. But my two cents is any company that is 100% vaccinated is not likely to have a cluster. Despite what you read, the vaccine does provide protection.

  5. #1065
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryScientist View Post
    I casually heard this on the news this morning and havent looked into it. Does that mean that children (who are not able to be vaxd yet) can not go to a restaurant, or is this rule for adults only?
    I'm not sure, I haven't heard that detail. Somehow I doubt people who can't vaccinate will be banned from restaurants.

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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    I'm not sure, I haven't heard that detail. Somehow I doubt people who can't vaccinate will be banned from restaurants.
    DeBlasio was just on TV. Children under 12 are exempt

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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    This thread is starting to get nuts.

    Vaccination and wearing a mask is common sense and not a political statement one way or the other. It's not about freedom of speech or "rights".

    Presumably we all want to get back to something approaching "normal", or circa 2019, at some point in the near future.
    I'm so done with masks, I'll wear them when I have to like entering a doctor's office or when the business has a policy out of respect and not wanting to be an ass, but I think we just all need to vaccinate. I don't think masks are a primary means of defense. -Mike G

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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by beeatnik View Post
    And when businesses and workplaces begin to report clusters will you be ok with a mask and testing to gain admission?
    I"m not even sure what to make of this or what it means. Change the word Covid-19 to leprocy, the plague or small pox.

  9. #1069
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Originally I wore a mask as protection for myself, panic and fear of the unknown. But as I did so, I realized that people expected me to be wearing a mask to protect them. That makes more sense to me, especially now that the percentages on infections among vaccinated people have been ticking upwards a bit. And because infected vaccinated people are not showing much of a reduction in their contagiousness to others, who may or may not be vaccinated. I am not a no-risk presence, even though I am vaccinated, so I wear a mask in the grocery, hardware store, etc. Closed spaces or whatever the magic phrase for that is now. As I understand it, the earliest stages of infection are when one is the most infectious, and I don't trust my ability to discern whether or not I might be ill in those early stages.

    Not fear. Just shared responsibility. It seems like the quantification of actual risk is somehow separate from that, at least at the individual decision level. Public policy is really where those quantifications are more material, more important to get right and to do so with transparency and accuracy so efficacy of policy is not whittled away by loss of confidence in the community and the growth of a sense that public policy is based on government's desire for expediency more than presentation of usable fact.
    Last edited by j44ke; 08-04-2021 at 10:20 AM.
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Originally I wore a mask as protection for myself, panic and fear of the unknown. But as I did so, I realized that people expected me to be wearing a mask to protect them. That makes more sense to me, especially now that the percentages on infections among vaccinated people have been ticking upwards a bit. And because infected vaccinated people are not showing much of a reduction in their contagiousness to others, who may or may not be vaccinated. I am not a no-risk presence, even though I am vaccinated, so I wear a mask in the grocery, hardware store, etc. Closed spaces or whatever the magic phrase for that is now. As I understand it, the earliest stages of infection are when one is the most infectious, and I don't trust my ability to discern whether or not I might be ill in those early stages.

    Not fear. Just shared responsibility. It seems like the quantification of actual risk is somehow separate from that, at least at the individual decision level. Public policy is really where those quantifications are more material, more important to get right and to do so with transparency and accuracy so efficacy of policy is not whittled away by loss of confidence in the community and the growth of a sense that public policy is based on government's desire for expediency more than presentation of usable fact.
    From a policy perspective, I don't quite see masks as really working. I look around and I see people walking with masks under their chin or just covering their mouth but not nose. Too many masks are home-made or ill fitting hospital masks(guilty here, i wear them far too long before replacing). The only mask that really works is an N-95 if properly worn.

  11. #1071
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    From a policy perspective, I don't quite see masks as really working. I look around and I see people walking with masks under their chin or just covering their mouth but not nose. Too many masks are home-made or ill fitting hospital masks(guilty here, i wear them far too long before replacing). The only mask that really works is an N-95 if properly worn.
    Right. As I remember, mask policy was originally based on a production issue, not on actually controlling epidemic spread. Not enough masks to go around, so tell everyone they aren't necessary. Then masks are necessary but N95 is only for front line workers so okay to wear a cotton bikini thong over your face. Then the thong isn't really enough of a mask but if you only have a thong put a sort of flat blue paper bandage over it and double layer. Then...

    Not the way to do it - edit: by "it" I mean public policy.
    Last edited by j44ke; 08-04-2021 at 03:22 PM.
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    I like all the pretty lugs!

    That I don't even remotely agree with most of your opinions is a small issue. You seem to take the internet far more seriously that I do I guess. I find it mildly cathartic to argue different opinions, and also mildly amusing to see how extremely unaccepting and intolerant the modern liberal is of anything "other". Just so much fear of everything.
    Which of my opinions do you not even remotely agree with?
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids

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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    But my two cents is any company that is 100% vaccinated is not likely to have a cluster. Despite what you read, the vaccine does provide protection.
    This is incorrect. According to the CDC and numbers on the ground. Also, reading between the proverbial lines and if one believes all epidemics are local, clusters of vaccinated outbreaks are now common in Los Angeles. At the moment, case rates on the affluent, knowledge economy-heavy Westside (and keep in mind, the vaccinated have very little incentive to test) are two to three times higher than in Boyle Heights (most total cases and highest historic case rate in Los Angeles), 25 to 45 daily cases per 100k versus 15 per 100k. 45 per 100k is what we used to believe was raging community transmission. Now you can either conclude that natural immunity is more protective accounting for lower current case rates in Boyle Heights or that vaccines are failing to prevent outbreaks. To me the best evidence is the case rate of 24 per 100k in Manhattan Beach (median home price 2M) where 99.5 of persons over 65 and 83% of children 12-17 are vaccinated. If one doesn't consider that universal....

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

    https://www.latimes.com/projects/cal...moButton-above

  14. #1074
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Yesterday was a bad day. I didn't sleep all night because of abdominal pain. I finally admitted I needed to go to the ER. I put my shot card in my pocket but was never asked for it. It seemed like covid was not a concern in the ER and that seemed to be a matter of testing. I had a bunch of tests including sonograms, CT, and all kinds of bloodwork. The final test was the nasal swab which was a first for me. It sucked but I was negative, but I was positive for an infected appendix. Now I'm watching the Olympics with ice packs on my belly over the three surgical incisions.

    Other than everyone in masks, it seemed like a normal scene in an emergency room.
    Weight Doper

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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    Yesterday was a bad day. I didn't sleep all night because of abdominal pain. I finally admitted I needed to go to the ER. I put my shot card in my pocket but was never asked for it. It seemed like covid was not a concern in the ER and that seemed to be a matter of testing. I had a bunch of tests including sonograms, CT, and all kinds of bloodwork. The final test was the nasal swab which was a first for me. It sucked but I was negative, but I was positive for an infected appendix. Now I'm watching the Olympics with ice packs on my belly over the three surgical incisions.

    Other than everyone in masks, it seemed like a normal scene in an emergency room.
    Bill, I am sorry about your belly and hope you start to feel better. And I thank you for not oversharing and posting photos. Only so much trauma I can handle... :) Get well soon !!!

  16. #1076
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by beeatnik View Post
    This is incorrect. According to the CDC and numbers on the ground. Also, reading between the proverbial lines and if one believes all epidemics are local, clusters of vaccinated outbreaks are now common in Los Angeles. At the moment, case rates on the affluent, knowledge economy-heavy Westside (and keep in mind, the vaccinated have very little incentive to test) are two to three times higher than in Boyle Heights (most total cases and highest historic case rate in Los Angeles), 25 to 45 daily cases per 100k versus 15 per 100k. 45 per 100k is what we used to believe was raging community transmission. Now you can either conclude that natural immunity is more protective accounting for lower current case rates in Boyle Heights or that vaccines are failing to prevent outbreaks. To me the best evidence is the case rate of 24 per 100k in Manhattan Beach (median home price 2M) where 99.5 of persons over 65 and 83% of children 12-17 are vaccinated. If one doesn't consider that universal....

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm

    https://www.latimes.com/projects/cal...moButton-above
    And Provincetown, but I think that has been discussed earlier in the thread.

    The promise of vaccination now is focused on the mitigation of infection severity, which is not a small thing - mortality risk is supposed to still be reduced. But doesn't the increase in "infectable" immune systems (within vaccinated + unvaccinated people) increase the possibility of future variants? Or is that the wrong way to think about it. My impression is that running the virus through the strainer of an immune system leaves the variants that can defeat those immunities. Or move faster/are more infectious.
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    Yesterday was a bad day. I didn't sleep all night because of abdominal pain. I finally admitted I needed to go to the ER. I put my shot card in my pocket but was never asked for it. It seemed like covid was not a concern in the ER and that seemed to be a matter of testing. I had a bunch of tests including sonograms, CT, and all kinds of bloodwork. The final test was the nasal swab which was a first for me. It sucked but I was negative, but I was positive for an infected appendix. Now I'm watching the Olympics with ice packs on my belly over the three surgical incisions.

    Other than everyone in masks, it seemed like a normal scene in an emergency room.

    Feel better Bill. Seems like you are having quite a year!
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    And Provincetown, but I think that has been discussed earlier in the thread.

    The promise of vaccination now is focused on the mitigation of infection severity, which is not a small thing - mortality risk is supposed to still be reduced. But doesn't the increase in "infectable" immune systems (within vaccinated + unvaccinated people) increase the possibility of future variants? Or is that the wrong way to think about it. My impression is that running the virus through the strainer of an immune system leaves the variants that can defeat those immunities. Or move faster/are more infectious.
    Re: variants

    We don't know, right? If variants are evolving in immunocompromised persons or individuals with weak immune systems and if the waning efficacy numbers are to be believed, then this is the group most likely to drive mutations or variants. They're susceptible to begin with and the protection against infection is shorter and less robust.

    When it comes to perceptions of the unvaccinated it's easy to abandon common sense. I'm sure there are Zero Fear Covid deniers who are 70 plus or in ill health (in that 10% hospitalization/death cohort) but it just seems obvious that the vast majority are younger and secure in their health status. Ie, if fear or self preservation didn't drive vaccination, 90% of 70 plus Americans wouldn't be vaccinated.

    Now, is the younger, healthier unvaccinated population large enough to allow the virus to mutate as quickly as it mutates in vulnerable populations? There doesn't seem to be consensus on that point.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...ients.amp.html

    variantz.jpg

  19. #1079
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    I just fired a team mate for refusing the vax (no medical reason offered, but lots of citing secondary media "research") as his job included occasional travel overseas that we will need him for. The final straw was a complaint from a partner Team Leader in Africa that he was also exchanging email containing similar, misinterpreted, pseudo-intellectual cherry-picked BS that's being spouted here, and encouraging the partner's local team to drop their masks during their social research activities in poor communities as it "didn't look good and masks don't do anything". He refused to step down from his principles, he was otherwise a valuable asset to the team before he lost his m****f***kin mind and decided to compromise the mission integrity (it's a health program FFS) and there's no phuks left to give when the roof is on fire, Covid don't care. Bye dude!

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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ZenNMotion View Post
    I just fired a team mate for refusing the vax (no medical reason offered, but lots of citing secondary media "research") as his job included occasional travel overseas that we will need him for. The final straw was a complaint from a partner Team Leader in Africa that he was also exchanging email containing similar, misinterpreted, pseudo-intellectual cherry-picked BS that's being spouted here, and encouraging the partner's local team to drop their masks during their social research activities in poor communities as it "didn't look good and masks don't do anything". He refused to step down from his principles, he was otherwise a valuable asset to the team before he lost his m****f***kin mind and decided to compromise the mission integrity (it's a health program FFS) and there's no phuks left to give when the roof is on fire, Covid don't care. Bye dude!
    What's your company's policy on a vaccinated employee infecting other vaccinated employees? Can a person face disciplinary action for showing up to work with obvious Covid-19 symptoms?

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