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View Poll Results: Will you take the vaccine as soon as it is made available to your category?

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  • Yes

    157 84.86%
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    28 15.14%
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Thread: The Vaccine Thread

  1. #1041
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by monadnocky View Post
    I've been following this thread with interest, while I do find most of the various posts and opinions worth reading, I've got to say, please stop with the attitude of "I'm the only person who can discern truth and the rest of you are living in a fantasy land" (in other thread(s), it usually includes something along the lines of liberal fantasy or something like that). It's not a good look, and it's not a good argument, and it's a complete and total turnoff for anyone trying to take your points seriously (and for what it's worth, I am).

    I've been here for a few years - enough to know that there are a lot of very smart people on this forum. Most, by far, aren't living in some Berkley bubble. I've been taken down in size more than once - politely - by several of them, and my respect for them is well-earned, over a long period of time. I'd suggest that you practice some patience in this regard to get the most out of your experience here, but hey, that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to moderate. Just offering my opinion.

    Also, the political views on this forum are pretty diverse. OK, I would generally - generally - agree that they tend to lean left. That tends to happen with (generally speaking) college-educated people who own $8,000 custom bikes. But there's a lot of diversity even within this group that you, for whatever reason, can't grasp; more than anyone here, you yourself seem obsessed with the whole idea of the "liberal bubble" or "dream land vs. real world."

    I have no idea what you're talking about with this language, and it's not conducive towards persuading anyone regarding what you're arguing.

    Everyone here lives in a very, very real world and to imply otherwise is completely insulting.
    Thank you for your opinion. You completely misconstrued what the actual point is and what I actually said: theory, especially in this case, does not reflect real world realities. It's not calling anyone an insult, it's the absolute fact that theoretical doesn't mean truth or real.

    I will say that I think you are wrong about the demographics. I wager this forum is at the very least 95% middle class+ white males, with the overwhelming majority of those males being firmly on the left and or liberal. (FWIW, I'm a first generation American, my parents moved here to escape USSR persecution, which I suppose is why I am against any direction that moves towards communism or socialism).

  2. #1042
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bcm119 View Post
    The WHO stuff is fairly outdated in terms of the messaging about transmission. I would refer to the CDC for the latest transmission science brief:
    Current evidence strongly suggests transmission from contaminated surfaces does not contribute substantially to new infections.
    I love you how can just completely disregard things whenever it doesn't serve you.

    I guess we'll just leave the point to: believe whatever you want. In this day and age, anyone can find anything to support their personal and highly biased opinion.

    Sound good?

  3. #1043
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Amunrud View Post
    Also taken directly from the WHO

    Fabric masks, if made and worn properly, can serve as a barrier to droplets expelled from the wearer into the air and environment.(12) However, masks must be used as part of a comprehensive package of preventive measures, which includes frequent hand hygiene, physical distancing when possible, respiratory etiquette, environmental cleaning and disinfection. Recommended precautions also include avoiding indoor crowded gatherings as much as possible, in particular when physical distancing is not feasible, and ensuring good environmental ventilation in any closed setting. (92, 93)
    Yes, exactly, you and they made my point, or I've been arguing theirs: A mask, poorly worn and inadequate (not N95, etc) alone is not enough to do a single darn thing. They may very well do more harm than good.

  4. #1044
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    Aerosols are one possible way the virus spreads. Touching presents far greater quantities of the virus than breathing does though, unless somebody sneezes in your face or something.
    That’s misinformation. Droplet and fomite (touch) transmission was suspected early on, hence the 6-foot rule for droplets and the hand washing and surface cleaning recommendations for fomites, have given way to aerosols as the primary mode of transmission.

    Not that guarding against droplets and fomites are bad ideas, but the science points to aerosol transmission as the prime suspect.
    Tawd Hawlen, Private Eye

    Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. — James Baldwin

  5. #1045
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    . I'm not going to get into a fluid dynamics lesson, but any gas moves from high to low pressure in the most efficient path, which is absolutely not through a fabric.

    Talk about elementary...
    No, I'm all in for the "fluid dynamics lesson" where you attempt to justify that statement. You can take it to whatever level you like, I'm up for it.

  6. #1046
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    I love you how can just completely disregard things whenever it doesn't serve you.

    I guess we'll just leave the point to: believe whatever you want. In this day and age, anyone can find anything to support their personal and highly biased opinion.

    Sound good?
    I follow the latest science, that's all. Surface contamination is emphasized far less than aerosol transmission now, despite the it being the focus early in the pandemic. The science is evolving as fast as the virus, and the smartest approach is to respect the latest guidance rather than dig your heels in or say it's all a crapshoot because it's a changing situation.

    Your tone is unnecessarily harsh and combative. We're all just trying to avoid getting a potentially life changing virus.

  7. #1047
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    ….”alone is not enough”

    Show me who has made this point anywhere in the discussion.

  8. #1048
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
    No, I'm all in for the "fluid dynamics lesson" where you attempt to justify that statement. You can take it to whatever level you like, I'm up for it.
    So there's this Italian guy...Honestly, if you don't immediately understand that a poorly worn mask will not contain any gas, merely redirect it to the sides long before it ever pushes through the fabric, then what's the point? Tending to resist compression and all that...

  9. #1049
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Still waiting for the fluid dynamics lesson. Always looking to learn.

    BTW we are talking about the flow of an inhomogenous mixture of incompressible and compressible fluids and the particles of interest are the incompressible bit so you'll have to lift your game from "tending to resist compression".

  10. #1050
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Amunrud View Post
    ….”alone is not enough”

    Show me who has made this point anywhere in the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post

    If gov wants to provide n95 masks, and people sanitize every single time they touch something, along with 6ft apart, then that would be a different story. But the surgical and fabric masks that the overwhelming majority of people wear, and the manner they are worn, are pretty much worthless
    Crow?

  11. #1051
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bcm119 View Post
    Come on. You know there are far too many variables in a virus outbreak to consider any other city a control. How the virus is introduced to the population, the demographics, the public messaging, the climate, the density of housing, the workplace culture and industry, city geography, cultural practices, family demographics. You just got done telling us the real world is more complex than a scientific model, and now you're arguing a city in another country around the world is a legitimate control point. Your bias is showing.
    Large variability or heterogeneity in individual susceptibility, yes. But in the case of Stockholm hard numbers are very similar to LA's. Stockholm's CFR is 1.7%, LA's 1.9%. Cases per million in Stockholm, 110k, cases per million in LA Co, 130k. I'm not in a position to design an observational study or to weight variables, but at a glance the variables which we know limit transmission ("seasonality," social distancing culture and size of the creative class) are similar between the both regions, the variables which we believe(d) limit transmission (lockdowns, school closures and mask usage) are not. Or put another way, in LA communities with high rates of WFH and social distancing (essentially voluntary behavioral changes) rates of transmission were under 5%, in communities where nearly half the population was infected, transmission was driven by occupational exposure. I'd hypothesize that Stockholm saw similar rates of exposure in its essential workers. And that's where the mask debate gets interesting. Wouldn't we expect to see astronomically higher rates of transmission in the cohort where the most vulnerable were not protected by masks? In any case, I compare LA to Stockholm because I live in LA Co and I follow the numbers in Stockholm.

    And as posted in a previous thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by beeatnik View Post
    And then there's Sweden. Comparable population to LA County, comparable cases per 1M population, 40% less deaths. What are the variables? Density, household size, healthcare access, trust in government, vitamin D levels, social distancing and mask use. LA and Sweden are on opposite ends in all those variables, except trust in government as compliance here has been universal. So, if density, social distancing and household size are the most important variables in Sweden limiting fatalities (compared to LA) outside of nursing homes, then the psychology of a mouthbreather in a rural county is more understandable. Sweden with a 40% lower rate of vaccination hasn't had a Covid fatality in a week; in the past 7 days in LA County there were 71 deaths.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/covi...ed-them-2021-7

    People living in Sweden previously told Insider that they were looked at strangely for wearing masks, and some said that they attracted abuse when they did. They said they were afraid because so few people were wearing masks, especially compared to other European countries.

    And others told Insider they almost never wore one, but felt safe because other measures like distancing were widely employed.
    Osterholm, again:

    Without regard to necessarily what humans do, you will see these big surges of cases often lasting 5-8 weeks and then it just ends. Even though there are still as I say a lot of human wood for this coronavirus forest fire to burn. And then it starts back up again later. And we don't understand that. And I think one of the challenges we have in public health prevention in messaging to the public is to help them understand just that.

  12. #1052
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    Crow?
    . With a little cognac 😬

  13. #1053
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
    Still waiting for the fluid dynamics lesson. Always looking to learn.
    Off the top of my head to paraphrase:

    In an open container (ie, non confined space), any gas will always avoid being compressed and move from a higher pressure to a lower pressure at a known velocity, which is part Bernoulli's (the Italian) principle. Honestly, for the sake of argument if we take it at the theory (which I'm not, because as I've already argued, theory is not real life), there is a real possibility that a mask increases the velocity of the gas exiting the mask, increasing particulate distribution, albeit up and down, not forward in the event of something like a sneeze. And as I've already said, if the fabric does not provide the resistance, then it's not filtering anything anyhow.

    Again, for the Nth time, if there is not a hermetic seal, the mask is basically worthless.

    Honestly, what does playing dumb serve? If you asked the question, I'm sure you knew that.

    [edit, saw you edited your post to include liquid (not compressible) particles]

    The carrier is the gas. What is being carried, be it liquid or solid, is completely immaterial to the discussion except if we get into mass x velocity x viscosity or something in order to talk about the distance the particles go or something. So, ya, no need to up my game if you just plain don't understand physics.

  14. #1054
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    So your "fluid dynamcs lesson" is that if you make a bunch of unjustified simplifications and assumptions you come to a conclusion that isn't supported by the empirical evidence.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7

  15. #1055
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
    So your "fluid dynamcs lesson" is that if you make a bunch of unjustified simplifications and assumptions you come to a conclusion that isn't supported by the empirical evidence.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7
    And again, yet another no reader who just goes for it.

    Nth+1 time: There is the possibility, that IMO must be considered, that touching one's face as necessitated by a mask, is more harmful than benefit of said particulate reduction. Also, this is very specifically talking about "Both surgical masks and unvented KN95 respirators" which I very, very, very specifically argued that most people are not currently wearing.

    The real world evidence shows absolutely no reduction in transmission by wearing masks. None. Not in cities, not in rural settings, no where. Because the real world is not a lab.

    Honestly, just read.

  16. #1056
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Sino,

    You’ve portrayed yourself as very pompous without regard to we all are participating in this discussion. You’ve lost me in a chance to debate/argue/or whatever you want to call it. Especially when you cannot see your own ignorance and inability to effectively communicate. I’ve determined your energy is not worth my time.

    … calmly steps away….

  17. #1057
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Amunrud View Post
    Sino,

    You’ve portrayed yourself as very pompous without regard to we all are participating in this discussion. You’ve lost me in a chance to debate/argue/or whatever you want to call it. Especially when you cannot see your own ignorance and inability to effectively communicate. I’ve determined your energy is not worth my time.

    … calmly steps away….
    I hope the irony of calling someone pompous with an incredibly self-important post isn't lost on you.

    Just another insult, with no counter argument whatsoever.

    As Curly Bill said, "well, bye."

  18. #1058
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sino View Post
    So there's this Italian guy...Honestly, if you don't immediately understand that a poorly worn mask will not contain any gas, merely redirect it to the sides long before it ever pushes through the fabric, then what's the point? Tending to resist compression and all that...
    I believe you’re talking about Bernoulli’s Principle here. Cloth masks have nothing to do with this. Gasses will compress and pressure changes. We are talking about rigid, non-porous surfaces, like an airfoil or hydrofoil. Obviously, air is a gas and water is not - and therefore not compressible. Gasses are compressible.

    This has little or nothing to do with the wisdom or not of masking. I put food on my table and pay my rent with Bernoulli but he has not yet adequately explained why a piece of plywood will fly. Angle of attack. Supercomputers can explain it but sticking your hand out the window of your car will tell you what you need to know. Don’t imagine you’re smarter than the rest here. You’re not. I sure as hell know I’m not. I’m the village idiot here but I do know one or two things about fluids and their dynamics because I care about it because I want to go home after work and ride my bike.

    Get back on the topic of vaccines, which is the subject at hand, or this thread will be locked. It’s been useful until recently. Let’s stay on topic.
    Last edited by Saab2000; 08-03-2021 at 09:37 PM.
    La Cheeserie!

  19. #1059
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Masks are on topic because in some places vaccinated individuals are being asked to wear masks and many of them are blaming the unvaccinated. Or is this thread strictly about vaccine love, which is cool…until it isn’t.

  20. #1060
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    Default Re: The Vaccine Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by beeatnik View Post
    Masks are on topic because in some places vaccinated individuals are being asked to wear masks and many of them are blaming the unvaccinated. Or is this thread strictly about vaccine love, which is cool…until it isn’t.
    I don’t think that last sentence is particularly fair. Most of what has happened in the last series of posts has been peppered with what borders on school yard name-calling. That’s unfortunate, unnecessary and carries the discussion away from the topic of masks and their role in the epidemic alongside vaccines or not vaccines. Which actually has been interesting.

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