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Thread: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis View Post
    Sure it is, if you buy something else instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoogs View Post
    buying a different brand, using a different supplier... someone else gets my money.
    Government stays exactly the same. In fact, they benefit from the economy - you are still shopping and spending money on something.

    I am not arguing against boycotting products. Just saying that it isn't voting. It is just boycotting products. Governments could care less what you buy. In fact, I think Governments love it when people decide that boycotting products is some form of political activism, because it takes the pressure off them. Then they can go on collecting the bonuses they get for protecting the interests of various parties who profit whether we like them or not.
    Last edited by j44ke; 03-02-2018 at 12:17 PM.
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Government stays exactly the same. In fact, they benefit from the economy - you are still shopping and spending money on something.

    I am not arguing against boycotting products. Just saying that it isn't voting. It is just boycotting products. Governments could care less what you buy.
    But if the company you're giving money to is using that money to influence government policy, then it does matter.
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by guido View Post
    No question that voting is the big game change.

    But Vista wouldn't own these brands if they didn't bring them profits. Showing them our displeasure through a dropping bottom line gives the menagement something to think about...
    So if this move succeeds completely, and the profits these brands make evaporate and turn into losses, do the owners shut them down and put a whole lot of folk out of work? Conversely, if the owners try to sell the brands as going concerns after this happens, how attractive will they be to other investors if they have a recent history of losses and, perhaps, a stale product line with not much in the R&D pipeline due to a lack of capital brought about by the sustained losses?
     

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by guido View Post
    No question that voting is the big game change.

    But Vista wouldn't own these brands if they didn't bring them profits. Showing them our displeasure through a dropping bottom line gives the menagement something to think about...
    I'm conflicted on this issue overall. Not about guns, but about the real impact of the power of my dollar. To play this one out...if Giro takes a huge hit because of their association with Vista, that would likely just serve to convince Vista that the bike market isn't worth their time. Meanwhile, the fervor around gun control will continue to increase sales in their ammunition/gun brands, strengthening Vista's position in that market. So Vista keeps making and selling guns and ammo, Giro gets sold off or downsized (yes this is a somewhat hyperbolic projection), and all the boycott did was hurt employees of a brand that actually makes some pretty excellent bike gear.

    Like I said, I'm conflicted. I don't feel good about spending money with companies that have direct ties to other companies and organizations that don't align with my beliefs. I don't believe that we should do nothing because we can't do everything. I recognize that almost every company can be tied to something that's unsavory, but it's still worth trying (it's the reason I won't buy anything from VW). But I also don't want the impact of my protest to impact what are essentially innocent bystanders. I wish I had a clear answer.
     

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis View Post
    But if the company you're giving money to is using that money to influence government policy, then it does matter.
    Most corporations have simply diversified so that they are protected from situations like these. Shopping boycotts may be able to effect some sort of division of the companies, where Giro etc. are spun off the main corporation or products are clearly linked to their parent companies on the packaging, etc. Those sort of results may be good steps in the process. But the long and the short of it is that if you want to effect elemental change to the way this country is run, you have to vote for people who will represent your views at the local, state and federal levels. You have to change the people in charge. You cannot allow shopping to become a substitute for participating in government. The people who are arguing that corporations are more efficient at enacting change than a representative government are people who should be viewed very suspiciously. The corporate model is not democratic. Shopping is not voting. Do not confuse the two. Too many people would love that sort of confusion, because it starves the government of voters, makes it less representative overall and thereby places more power in the hands of corporate interests.

    Again, I am not saying don't boycott products. I am saying don't confuse boycotting products with actually voting. Too many of the people you may actually oppose benefit when you do.
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis View Post
    This whole thing with Delta here in GA is...strange. Georgia Lawmakers Punish Delta Air Lines Over NRA Feud : The Two-Way : NPR

    Lt. Governor tweeted:


    I'm pretty middle of the road politically, but I grew up in a very conservative house, most of my family is very conservative, and the conservative part of me is pissed at that quote. Calling a lack of discounts on plane tickets an 'attack' is some entitled, whiny, snowflake BS IMO. That mentality is certainly not how I was raised.

    Also, as far as the tax break is concerned, I'm honestly not educated enough on the topic to know if it's a good thing or not. I do know that the ATL airport is a big tax base contributor to one of the school systems my company does a lot of work for - we're working on doing the MEP design for renovations/additions to six (I think) different schools in that county right now. Taxes collected from the airport (not sure if any of the fuel tax is part of that or not) is partially how they are able to do these renovations and whatnot. Those projects are great for a lot of businesses, not just where I work, but contractors, suppliers, etc.

    Anyhow...getting back on topic....
    Dustin,

    If it's Clayton County you're referring to, the airport is a huge tax source and the fuel sales tax is part of the county's revenue. The proffered tax break to Delta would have been a huge loss to Clayton Cty schools. I was against it (I don't believe Delta needs it or will move without it), but I'm also more against the Lt Gov's stupidity. A case of two wrongs equal right outcome?

    It will be interesting to see how Delta's 30,000+ employees in the state (many of which live in Clayton County) vote in the upcoming election for governor. I'm also sure Amazon is watching to see if the gun fetishing side of the Republican Party in GA is stronger than the pro-business side when considering their HQ2 location. Atlanta has 3 potential sites that it's pushing. Historically, Atlanta and the state has been more successful than neighboring states and their largest cities because it's been more progressive (in a relative sense, not a West Coast sense). It's sad to see we are losing that difference by regression.

    - Taz
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Not buying something is not the same as voting.
    Most economists would argue that buying/not buying is a voting for a company’s success- especially in a consumer driven economy (that is us).
    What I am making now:7 sugars.
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by the bottle ride View Post
    Most economists would argue that buying/not buying is a voting for a company’s success- especially in a consumer driven economy (that is us).
    Sure. And I hope those economists remember to go to their local polling place and vote for a representative government that will make sure the advances of our consumer driven economy happen to the benefit of this country's citizens and not merely as a product of exploiting them.
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by GrantM View Post
    The Camelback brand is one i've struggled with for years. Clearly the best product in the hydration pack category,
    and yet they're a defence department supplier of military combat equipment - something they used to market (maybe still do)

    Same thing with Oakley, they have dedicated miltiary sales divisions, are part of that ecosystem. I'm not super-comfortable
    with that, i'm not really looking to associate my lifestyle and recreation with the military industrial machine,
    but a long time ago I concluded this is something structural about the way the economy and markets work,
    and it's far too complicated for me to sort it out. Like was posted, i'd buy nothing if I really knew all the context.
    I just want to ride my bike, which i think is really all the message I need to send.

    -g
    Just curious, but if the product is the best, or one of the best on the market, why wouldn't you want our soldiers to be supplied with, or have access too, the best available?
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    I'm not sure if your take away from my post was that I only vote with my wallet, but I can assure you it is not.

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Neide View Post
    Just curious, but if the product is the best, or one of the best on the market, why wouldn't you want our soldiers to be supplied with, or have access too, the best available?
    It's not at all about the goods, but the business of war being directly connected to consumer brands.
    Likewise, i don't support the fashion industry adopting military uniform design. I don't wear camo either.
    Just a personal decision to not mix the realms, it's not a statement about the equipment needs of a military,
    but rather a desire to keep what i think are important things in their proper context.

    -g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Companies sell a lot of different things. They're diversified. They hedge. They take advice from Wu-Tang Financial.

    "As an homage to the EPOdays of yore- I'd find the world's last remaining pair of 40cm ergonomic drop bars.....i think everyone who ever liked those handlebars in that shape and in that width is either dead of a drug overdose, works in the Schaerbeek mattress factory now and weighs 300 pounds or is Dr. Davey Bruylandts...who for all I know is doing both of those things." - Jerk

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by taz View Post
    Dustin,

    If it's Clayton County you're referring to, the airport is a huge tax source and the fuel sales tax is part of the county's revenue. The proffered tax break to Delta would have been a huge loss to Clayton Cty schools. I was against it (I don't believe Delta needs it or will move without it), but I'm also more against the Lt Gov's stupidity. A case of two wrongs equal right outcome?

    It will be interesting to see how Delta's 30,000+ employees in the state (many of which live in Clayton County) vote in the upcoming election for governor. I'm also sure Amazon is watching to see if the gun fetishing side of the Republican Party in GA is stronger than the pro-business side when considering their HQ2 location. Atlanta has 3 potential sites that it's pushing. Historically, Atlanta and the state has been more successful than neighboring states and their largest cities because it's been more progressive (in a relative sense, not a West Coast sense). It's sad to see we are losing that difference by regression.

    - Taz
    Don't feel too bad - you always have North Carolina to look down on. We went from arguably the most progressive state in the South to the state known primarily for the "bathroom bill" (AKA HB1) and for taking gerrymandering to the theoretical limits.

    Oh, and we gifted you your film industry when we took away the tax incentives that had made Wilmington the "Hollywood of the East" (also politically motivated, a casualty of the culture wars).
     

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    I have a scribbled story idea in a notebook somewhere where one year, no one shops for Christmas. I haven't figured out what sort of event would cause that kind of boycott as a reaction, but I think a boycott of that magnitude in the US economy might be powerful enough to enact change.

    Might not be the sort of change we'd be happy about, but it would be something.
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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    I'm conflicted on this issue overall. Not about guns, but about the real impact of the power of my dollar. To play this one out...if Giro takes a huge hit because of their association with Vista, that would likely just serve to convince Vista that the bike market isn't worth their time. Meanwhile, the fervor around gun control will continue to increase sales in their ammunition/gun brands, strengthening Vista's position in that market. So Vista keeps making and selling guns and ammo, Giro gets sold off or downsized (yes this is a somewhat hyperbolic projection), and all the boycott did was hurt employees of a brand that actually makes some pretty excellent bike gear.
    There is a element of the Al Franken scandal with this. Let's take down someone on the margins of a serious problem because they're not perfect,
    and leave in place, and apply no real pressure to, the worst offenders. My Boycott of gun and ammo purchases entered its 50th year earlier this week,
    likewise, boycotting Giro is going to do nothing productive, that's why i'm less conflicted about it.

    I really don't like the association with Vista, but I can think of a lot of ways to do something more tangible than ranting on Facebook about it.
    For one, I'll donate to a charity instead of buying something i probably don't need anyway this weekend. Maybe some of the yoga-pant crowd
    who are outraged about this issue can skip buying another colour-coordinated plastic water bottle and send the money to a women's shelter or
    program that actually helps people who are victims of gun violence who really need it.

    -g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    As a firm believer in the Bill of Rights, I'd rather see companies willingly pull things they consider antithetical to their beliefs voluntarily than see another law being passed.

    I've said it elsewhere: gun control isn't a 'thing' issue, it's a 'people' issue. Until people stop seeing shooting other people as a viable means of making their point, shootings, stabbings, battings, bombings, etc will keep happening. IOW gun violence is a symptom not a cause of the problem. An 'assault weapons' ban is like taking cough medicine when you have a cold. Yeah, your cough is gone, but the underlying cold is still there. Passing gun control laws is like getting rid of your cough mid-cold and declaring the cold over. Nope. Cold's still there, you've just masked the symptoms.

    ...but anti-gun people are fixated the evil black rifle again, so you can't tell them anything other than what they want to hear. ...which is legislating morality and we all know that doesn't work.

    M
     

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrod74 View Post
    Don't feel too bad - you always have North Carolina to look down on. We went from arguably the most progressive state in the South to the state known primarily for the "bathroom bill" (AKA HB1) and for taking gerrymandering to the theoretical limits.

    Oh, and we gifted you your film industry when we took away the tax incentives that had made Wilmington the "Hollywood of the East" (also politically motivated, a casualty of the culture wars).
    Thanks for that... it's really been a boon to ATL and outlying areas. I've had film shoots literally blocks from my house. Unfortunately, we're trying to give it back with some stupid ban on LBGQ adoption legislation. It's like a race to see who can circle the toilet the fastest.
    killing idols one at a time

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    So if this move succeeds completely, and the profits these brands make evaporate and turn into losses, do the owners shut them down and put a whole lot of folk out of work? Conversely, if the owners try to sell the brands as going concerns after this happens, how attractive will they be to other investors if they have a recent history of losses and, perhaps, a stale product line with not much in the R&D pipeline due to a lack of capital brought about by the sustained losses?
    It occurred to me (before I saw this post) that the best outcome would be for Vista to "dump" these brands, since they are not their primary business, and if its guns or bike accessories they need to choose between, we know which one they'll choose.
    Sort of like when Philip Morris spun off Kraft?
    Potential buyers (lets hope Koch Industries isn't one) should be savvy enough to understand that recent history, and if they benefit from fire-sale pricing, well, cue the world's tiniest violin for Vista.
    And I'll certainly be happy to buy Giro, again. Not a helmet (only buy new ones after I've crashed on the old one, and I'm not looking forward to that) but the winter/spring gloves of theirs are the shizzle!
    Based on a true story.

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by Gummee View Post
    As a firm believer in the Bill of Rights, I'd rather see companies willingly pull things they consider antithetical to their beliefs voluntarily than see another law being passed.

    I've said it elsewhere: gun control isn't a 'thing' issue, it's a 'people' issue. Until people stop seeing shooting other people as a viable means of making their point, shootings, stabbings, battings, bombings, etc will keep happening. IOW gun violence is a symptom not a cause of the problem. An 'assault weapons' ban is like taking cough medicine when you have a cold. Yeah, your cough is gone, but the underlying cold is still there. Passing gun control laws is like getting rid of your cough mid-cold and declaring the cold over. Nope. Cold's still there, you've just masked the symptoms.

    ...but anti-gun people are fixated the evil black rifle again, so you can't tell them anything other than what they want to hear. ...which is legislating morality and we all know that doesn't work.

    M
    Respectfully, people have been killing each other since the beginning of recorded history (or biblical history if you prefer). If that's the 'cold' you referring to, it's incurable. Guns may not kill people (to quote the tired trope) but they do allow people to kill other people in multiples and from great distances with little risk to the shooter. If you restrict the method of killing to rocks, knives, swords, arrows, cars and trucks, et al.. you will reduce the number of deaths. Not eliminate, but reduce.

    Please don't bring the Bill of Rights into this unless you're prepared to honestly discuss the first clause of the 2nd amendment.
    killing idols one at a time

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    Default Re: REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

    Quote Originally Posted by Torquer View Post
    It occurred to me (before I saw this post) that the best outcome would be for Vista to "dump" these brands, since they are not their primary business, and if its guns or bike accessories they need to choose between, we know which one they'll choose.
    Sort of like when Philip Morris spun off Kraft?
    Potential buyers (lets hope Koch Industries isn't one) should be savvy enough to understand that recent history, and if they benefit from fire-sale pricing, well, cue the world's tiniest violin for Vista.
    And I'll certainly be happy to buy Giro, again. Not a helmet (only buy new ones after I've crashed on the old one, and I'm not looking forward to that) but the winter/spring gloves of theirs are the shizzle!
    But you know Koch Industries makes Lycra, right?
    Weight Doper

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