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Thread: Popular vote ramblings

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    It is a good discussion, it is forcing me to re-read some things I've left for granted.

    Electoral College for now.

    Reform campaign laws and protect / promote fair voting seems like something that makes a difference in my lifetime.

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    If it weren't for the 12th amendment, we'd have Vice-President Clinton. Now, that'd be fun.

    Considering the interests of smaller population states, I doubt a constitutional amendment has any chance.

    Gerrymandering will go part of the way, but that is really a solution for state politics, not so much national.

    Money = free speech as defined by Citizen's United + Mitt Romney's famous Corporations are people too are a big part of the problem. People have liability. A corporation is there to limit liability. Therefore, it should not have the same rights as a Person. Otherwise , the corporation becomes the uber person (all the good rights, with non of the downside).
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by vertical_doug View Post
    If it weren't for the 12th amendment, we'd have Vice-President Clinton. Now, that'd be fun.

    Considering the interests of smaller population states, I doubt a constitutional amendment has any chance.

    Gerrymandering will go part of the way, but that is really a solution for state politics, not so much national.

    Money = free speech as defined by Citizen's United + Mitt Romney's famous Corporations are people too are a big part of the problem. People have liability. A corporation is there to limit liability. Therefore, it should not have the same rights as a Person. Otherwise , the corporation becomes the uber person (all the good rights, with non of the downside).
    Don't individuals also have a way to limit their liability like corporations do - the personal bankruptcy process?
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    Don't individuals also have a way to limit their liability like corporations do - the personal bankruptcy process?
    I'll take this tongue and cheek. Individual is 7 or 13, which then restricts your ability to declare of again for 8 or 4 yrs. Plus some debts (student loans) are not forgiven. It's only as a individual if you get large enough you may get to file like a corporation in chapter 11.

    More importantly, for a corporation filing chapter 11, you as an owner, other assets are safe. Its unlikely they will even try to clawback assets and income taken from the corporation to the owner unless some real fraud.
    (This is the wonder of Trump's multiple bankruptcies.)

    I know there are some real legal experts on here, so even though I am painting with a broad brush and the devil is the details, be gentle.
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Update: there is real traction on this issue >> https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.82db5b28bf27

    Eleven States and the District of Columbia have joined in passing the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. The compact represents 172 electoral votes from 12 states thus far.

    There exists a fair argument that 80% of the USA is ignored during the electoral process (before during after).

    Discuss
    Last edited by Too Tall; 02-28-2019 at 09:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Seems to me a popular vote would basically ignore EVERY state except california & new york. Seems to me the less populous states stand to lose big. Think Tyranny of the Minority by the Majority. I thought most of you left leaning folks were against that sort of thing?
    Glenn Thompson
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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltex View Post
    Seems to me a popular vote would basically ignore EVERY state except california & new york. Seems to me the less populous states stand to lose big. Think Tyranny of the Minority by the Majority. I thought most of you left leaning folks were against that sort of thing?
    It's been said the end result of popular vote is that we'd essentially end up as The Hunger Games.
    DT

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Do States Rights serve to sufficiently protect small(er) States?

    What exactly would happen which could potentially happen that will negatively impact small States?

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltex View Post
    Seems to me a popular vote would basically ignore EVERY state except california & new york. Seems to me the less populous states stand to lose big. Think Tyranny of the Minority by the Majority. I thought most of you left leaning folks were against that sort of thing?
    We're forgetting Texas exists now?
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    The minority has a history of such fine and reasoned decisions what could possibly go wrong?
    Guy Washburn

    Photography > www.guywashburn.com

    “Dad, my sitting here today, in the U.S. Capitol, talking to our elected officials, is proof that you made the right decision forty years ago to leave the Soviet Union and come here to the United States of America, in search of a better life for our family. Do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth.”
    -- Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    1. What matters, people or acres?
    2. We already have enough disproportionate representation in the Senate.
    3. Look what the US says about any other nation where the person getting fewer votes ends up as the leader.
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by vertical_doug View Post
    If it weren't for the 12th amendment, we'd have Vice-President Clinton. Now, that'd be fun. .
    I sincerely think that type of Presidency/VP would great. Keep the car driving down the middle of the road, out of the ditches to either side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post

    Reform campaign laws and protect / promote fair voting seems like something that makes a difference in my lifetime.
    Until all politicians on either side are no longer for sale nothing will change.
    Glenn Thompson
    "More Frame, less Seatpost"

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    The world is a very, very different place today than it was when the Electoral College was conceived. I'm not advocating either way, but I think it's reasonable to examine whether or not it's relevant, especially in light of the fact that in recent memory we have had two deeply unpopular presidents win the presidency without winning the popular vote. That seems like tyranny if you ask me. BTW, I am pretty much over that word, which is related to tyrant. While I don't support either of these presidents in question, neither can truly be described as a tyrant. I'll leave that designation for folks like Hitler and Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin and Nicolae Ceausescu. I digress.

    Jet air travel, the internet, infinitely more personal mobility, etc. make the United States vastly different than it was when the Electoral Collage was a good idea. It may be time to reconsider how we elect presidents. The Senate and House seem more reasonable to me as it is, but I think it prudent to examine the presidential electoral process in this country, including when states hold their primaries.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltex View Post
    I sincerely think that type of Presidency/VP would great. Keep the car driving down the middle of the road, out of the ditches to either side.
    It really didn't work when they tried it.
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by lumpy View Post
    It really didn't work when they tried it.
    There's a reason they had four elections for President and then were like "Nah, we gots to change this."

    And that wasn't some hundreds of years after the fact revisionism. The guys who had a hand in the first cut of how this would work were still around to throw up their hands and "We really screwed the pooch on this one guys."
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post
    There's a reason they had four elections for President and then were like "Nah, we gots to change this."

    And that wasn't some hundreds of years after the fact revisionism. The guys who had a hand in the first cut of how this would work were still around to throw up their hands and "We really screwed the pooch on this one guys."
    Bingo.
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by lumpy View Post
    Bingo.
    Mansplain' it to me in today's terms. What is actually at stake for the States who you presume will be screwed.

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    I've read it said many times, that a popular vote for president would lead to a few large states controlling who wins. It seems to my feeble mind that a true popular vote would merely mean that a vote in California (presumably for a D) is equivalent to a vote in Kansas (presumably for an R). The geographic location where that vote is cast matters not. For the only national office we all vote for, states borders seem irrelevant.

    Tyranny of the majority ... tyranny of the minority got us this guy.
    Best Regards,

    Jason Curtis
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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
    Mansplain' it to me in today's terms. What is actually at stake for the States who you presume will be screwed.
    The same concerns the Framers had exist, just put in a tad different context. Back then, the worry was the large cities would dominate policy decisions at the federal level, dictating to the country what resources they in theory didn't get, taxed them unreasonably and, in the background, there was that whole abolition thing cooking that Southerners weren't too keen about.

    Today, the forces are primarily educational and economic, but there's something to the idea that we've abandoned government aid, assistance and support in areas that aren't the coastal hubs. The flight of Millenials to cities -- notably on the coast -- is endemic of a larger issue of the resource gap developing between the haves and have nots in this country. If you're educated and check the boxes and can afford to live in an increasingly expensive urban locale, you're doing alright. If you can't, and rely on manufacturing or some other form of non-white collar work in flyover country, well, times are tough and only getting tougher. And the government seems to be largely apathetic to the plight of those living there. The fear is this will only be exacerbated as more and more of the country's population is concentrated in a couple select urban areas.

    Same fears and forces, just different dynamics driving the underlying concern.
     

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    Default Re: Popular vote ramblings

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post
    The same concerns the Framers had exist, just put in a tad different context. Back then, the worry was the large cities would dominate policy decisions at the federal level, dictating to the country what resources they in theory didn't get, taxed them unreasonably and, in the background, there was that whole abolition thing cooking that Southerners weren't too keen about.

    Today, the forces are primarily educational and economic, but there's something to the idea that we've abandoned government aid, assistance and support in areas that aren't the coastal hubs. The flight of Millenials to cities -- notably on the coast -- is endemic of a larger issue of the resource gap developing between the haves and have nots in this country. If you're educated and check the boxes and can afford to live in an increasingly expensive urban locale, you're doing alright. If you can't, and rely on manufacturing or some other form of non-white collar work in flyover country, well, times are tough and only getting tougher. And the government seems to be largely apathetic to the plight of those living there. The fear is this will only be exacerbated as more and more of the country's population is concentrated in a couple select urban areas.

    Same fears and forces, just different dynamics driving the underlying concern.
    And yet it is the population of these coastal hubs that advocate for social safety net programs, free or reduced cost college education and other programs that would really help those in the flyover states and are fought against so viciously by the elected officials of the very same flyover states.
    Guy Washburn

    Photography > www.guywashburn.com

    “Dad, my sitting here today, in the U.S. Capitol, talking to our elected officials, is proof that you made the right decision forty years ago to leave the Soviet Union and come here to the United States of America, in search of a better life for our family. Do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth.”
    -- Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman

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