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Thread: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbabcock View Post
    So...how many folks show up to protest in DC today?
    I’ll set the over/under at 200k.
    Double that number.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Or 3) start obeying the laws. Folks here seem more pissed off at the President's photo op in front of the church, than at the arsons who actually torched the historic place!

    The elephant in the room is once again, people who CHOOSE to break the law. Break the law, you get cops. Riot, you get riot cops. Burn big plus violent acts towards cops, you get national guard.

    Cut the violence, and you decrease police presence. But that's not what they really want. They want conflict and social media vids. Provoking to get cops behaving badly. Endless circle.
    Folks here, there and everywhere are more pissed off at the President because he ordered a violent assault on peaceful protesters who were exercising their right to protest. And he did it so he could stand in front of the church, using it as a prop in his pathetic photo op.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Right now the cops in NYC are using a technique called kettling. Protestors, who are violating a curfew, are rounded up by using helicopters to direct the movement of police units so protestors end up in a confined space with police officers blocking any exits. Then the protestors are given the option to disperse and told if they do not disperse, they will be arrested.

    Unfortunately when people have acquiesced and tried to disperse, they have been arrested when they try to cross police lines. Because the police have blocked all the exits, there is no way to disperse without getting arrested. In some protests, people trying to disperse have also been beaten with batons. When the crowd figures out what is going on, they start to get ramped up. As far as I can tell - I've been reading as much as possible but things are confusing - these haven't been violent protests. But when people feel like they are being restrained not only from disobeying orders (curfew) but also from obeying orders (to disperse) and are threatened with violence, stuff happens. Then the cops, who have been slowly tightening their lines, rush the protestors with their batons, injuring people, targeting medics who try to help the injured, and the press covering the event, arresting anyone they catch, including local residents or workers who happened to be in the area.

    It just seems so wrong-headed. For one, it confirms everything that the protestors think about cops. They are liars and they are violent and they arrest people without just cause. And for another, it creates a situation where the end result is predetermined. Because of the pressure, even the most low-key calm crowd of protestors is going to have someone in their midst freak out and give the cops the trigger they need to rush the group. Third, it creates a self-perpetuating cycle. Out of these police actions comes the energy and animus for the next protest. One after the other and again again again.

    So if the true goal of the police is to protect property and end protests, they aren't doing it right. In fact, they are doing the opposite of right.

    I saw this in Prague. I think I've mentioned it here before. Prague cops used kettling methods during a WTO protest and all hell broke out. Afterwards, they resolved to never have that happen again. A NATO convention was going to be two years from then, plenty of protests already being planned for that event, so the various police forces in the Czech Republic spent those two years working on de-escalation tactics. NATO came - yes there were protests, yes there was some damage, but the whole thing was completely different from the WTO protests. Contentious for sure, and people did get arrested, but after NATO left, everything was fine.

    With law enforcement and these protests now, it just seems that the desired outcomes (at least those advertised by mayors and other politicians) and the tactics used by law enforcement are on two different planets.
    Last edited by j44ke; 06-06-2020 at 01:42 PM.
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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by cny rider View Post
    Folks here, there and everywhere are more pissed off at the President because he ordered a violent assault on peaceful protesters who were exercising their right to protest. And he did it so he could stand in front of the church, using it as a prop in his pathetic photo op.
    And still not a negative word on those who actually torched the church...

    I wasn't thrilled with the crowd control either, but the early reports of terrible gas and rubber bullets were simply not true. But it makes good press though. And even when the media knew it wasn't true, they continued to report it.

    Another bad decision by the President for sure. But let's be truthful at least.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by chasea View Post
    Talking about property damage in response to murder is saying “all laws matter.”
    As a society we've moved past "an eye for an eye".

    We've even moved past the death penalty in (I believe) 20 states.

    Report back when someone destroys anything you own in protest.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    And still not a negative word on those who actually torched the church...

    I wasn't thrilled with the crowd control either, but the early reports of terrible gas and rubber bullets were simply not true. But it makes good press though. And even when the media knew it wasn't true, they continued to report it.

    Another bad decision by the President for sure. But let's be truthful at least.
    except tear gas was used to disperse those protests. pepper balls and smoke canisters are classified by the CDC as types of tear gas. You're making a distinction here when there really isn't one.

    Fact-checking Trump's claims about tear gas used against protesters - CNN Video
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    As a society we've moved past "an eye for an eye".

    We've even moved past the death penalty in (I believe) 20 states.

    Report back when someone destroys anything you own in protest.
    The whole point of these protests if you'd listen is that at as a society we haven't moved very far at all.
    "Moved past the death penalty." Cops are judge jury and executioner when a black man is suspected of using a fake bill or selling cigarettes.

    Anywhosers. Progress is never a straight line, but what you're seeing is progress. People can already see who you are. Right now you're getting by. But you're on the wrong side of history. You're gonna lose your comfortable way of life.

    Hey, have a good one.
    Got some cash
    Bought some wheels
    Took it out
    'Cross the fields
    Lost Control
    Hit a wall
    But we're alright

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Looting is wrong but those complaining about looting should consider that the looting is enabled by the local government's diversion of police resources toward the suppression peaceful protest rather than actually hearing and listening to protester demands

    Here's a clip from Trevor Noah on the "right" and "wrong" ways to protest
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    And still not a negative word on those who actually torched the church...

    I wasn't thrilled with the crowd control either, but the early reports of terrible gas and rubber bullets were simply not true. But it makes good press though. And even when the media knew it wasn't true, they continued to report it.

    Another bad decision by the President for sure. But let's be truthful at least.
    In the Washington park clearing? I don't think you can say that this was an intentional mis-identification though, just a lack of familiarity with a similar device. The various police forces used pepper balls which are both a projectile and an irritant. So people were injured by projectiles and experienced eye nose throat and skin irritation, but it was the same thing that hit them, not two different things. And then the cops also released smoke canisters. So while it wasn't actual tear gas, it was a chemical that performed very similarly. And then there was added smoke. Meaning - if you get hit by a pepper ball you might think you got hit with a rubber bullet and/or dosed by a tear gas canister, especially with smoke all around you.

    This article is pretty accurate on pepper balls.

    What are pepper balls, and why did police use them for Trump'''s photo o
    Last edited by j44ke; 06-06-2020 at 03:01 PM.
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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    I'll concede the point. But still, no condemnation of the arsonists? Does anyone see my point here?

    Anyhow, I hope the weekend is strong on protest, weak on violence.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    I'll concede the point. But still, no condemnation of the arsonists? Does anyone see my point here?

    Anyhow, I hope the weekend is strong on protest, weak on violence.
    I’ve seen plenty of condemnations of arson during these various protests. I don’t think the group protesting in the park was the same group who started the fires though. The fires were all on the first day/night? By the time the park clearing event occurred I am pretty sure the composition of the group had changed. That’s at least what I’ve read. I’ll need to recheck that.
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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    And still not a negative word on those who actually torched the church...

    I wasn't thrilled with the crowd control either, but the early reports of terrible gas and rubber bullets were simply not true. But it makes good press though. And even when the media knew it wasn't true, they continued to report it.

    Another bad decision by the President for sure. But let's be truthful at least.
    Vandalizing the church was bad.

    So can we get back to the obscene action by the President of the United States?

    And can we acknowledge that this is not about obeying laws? This is about ongoing systemic racist police practices, about brutal abuses of policing, inexplicably occurring in front of cameras recording protests of these very abuses.

    I'm truly disappointed with your priorities Corso. But I sincerely thank you for sharing them.
    GO!

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Buildings can be rebuilt. The generations of lives destroyed or snuffed out by systematic racism can't be.
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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    But still, no condemnation of the arsonists? Does anyone see my point here?
    Why no condemnation of the violent police? Does anyone see my point here?
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    And still not a negative word on those who actually torched the church...
    I will say a negative word about the arsonists and vandals. They have my condemnation. I abhor the violence and condemn it.

    It must stop.

    Two bike shops in the Twin Cities were looted. A local legendary high end shop called Flanders Bros. Cyclery (yes, that’s their actual name) and another shop, Freewheel, were both damaged and looted.

    As much as I support the cause here and am aware police brutality is a sickness in this country, I’m not sure justice for George Floyd is being achieved by burning a church or breaking and entering and cleaning out bike shops, among many others.

    I want to be done with this thread and know you want to hear negative words about burning a church. I will without hesitation say negative words about that, and all the other violence associated with this awful crime.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by davids View Post
    Vandalizing the church was bad.

    So can we get back to the obscene action by the President of the United States?

    And can we acknowledge that this is not about obeying laws? This is about ongoing systemic racist police practices, about brutal abuses of policing, inexplicably occurring in front of cameras recording protests of these very abuses.

    I'm truly disappointed with your priorities Corso. But I sincerely thank you for sharing them.
    My priorities are like everybody else's here. I think you've misinterpreted them.

    11 people have died as a result of the protest. Hundreds more injured, on both "sides".

    Yes buildings and business can be rebuilt, that's little consolation to independent shop keepers vs say, Target.

    Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't see how adding more bodies in cemeteries "evens out" injustice of the past. It just keeps the circle of hate-revenge in perpetual motion.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by monadnocky View Post
    First, let's get away from the word "obey." It smacks of Kohlberg's pre-conventional morality. Hell, the whole post does. The law is not the end-all and be-all of moral decision making or moral authority. Throughout time, there have been individuals who - peacefully, or when necessarily, violently - have broken "laws" due to their inherently unjust or oppressive nature. I cannot imagine that anyone, besides those stuck in a Stage 1 obedience-and-punishment Kohlbergian orientation, would argue that those individuals we hold as models of morally righteous resistance (MLK, White Rose in Nazi Germany, Gandhi, even Jesus) should not have "broken the law."

    Break the law, you get cops. Let's hope so. Let's hope you get good, capable, kind cops who are properly trained. I broke the law a few weeks ago when I was pulled over for going too fast on Route 89. The officer was friendly, I felt zero fear, and I was let off with a warning. I was acutely aware throughout the whole exchange that it would be a very, very different scenario if I was afraid, and as a psychologist I know how fear and post-traumatic response can look. And for police not sufficiently trained, such a response can look oppositional (god forbid!) or even threatening. And those who have darker skin color than I have very, very good reason to be afraid of the police. Just listen to their experience! They are not all making it up!

    How about I, as a white guy, gather some of my friends with weapons of war and march to the local state house and purposely intimidate with lethal force? Do I get national guard? Or even the police? Nah, we get accolades from the top down as freedom fighters protecting law and order.

    To say that "they want conflict and social media vids" ... well, perhaps some of that may be the proximate goal. But the ultimate goal is social justice and the opportunity to live in the world where you don't get the life stomped out of you because of an accusation that you passed a counterfeit $20 bill.

    Look up Kohlberg's "Heinz dilemma." Lemme know how you think of "breaking the law" after this very simple scenario.
    I could read pages (volumes) of this.
     

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    Default re: Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    My priorities are like everybody else's here. I think you've misinterpreted them.

    11 people have died as a result of the protest. Hundreds more injured, on both "sides".

    Yes buildings and business can be rebuilt, that's little consolation to independent shop keepers vs say, Target.

    Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't see how adding more bodies in cemeteries "evens out" injustice of the past. It just keeps the circle of hate-revenge in perpetual motion.
    This is fine and good.

    A federally provided pool to cover the costs of the damages would go a long way to help small businesses recover. (Let's see how long it takes the Senate to pass that...)

    But how do you suggest we stop the current injustice and bring true equality? How do we rid our communities of police who feel the community is the enemy? How can we instill in the police that a life is more important than a counterfeit $20? How do we prevent the neighborhoods from being red-lined so people can own their own homes with dignity? How can we fix an educational system that gets different outcomes by zip code? How can we protect members of the community who are deemed critical workers during the current pandemic but aren't paid or respected properly as critical individuals?
    Last edited by guido; 06-06-2020 at 05:20 PM.
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