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Thread: Middle east.

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    No one condoned it, but no one bothered to criticize it here either, did they? I'll answer: NO.

    Obama kills hundreds of people= crickets. Trump kills 5 people=8 pages (so far) of predominatly negative rants and name calling.

    That's my point. And my example was under Obama's watch, don't drag Bush into it. Whataboutism from you? Or is there a different clever term for what you just did?

    So dismiss any comparison of the left's double standards claim whataboutism if you will, it's great way to dismiss the facts.

    He's done such a "bad job", he's going to run away with the election, impeachment BS or not.

    Please bear in mind this forum is not a representation of the Nation. If it were, Hillary would be the one ordering drone strikes, and this thread would not exist, as none here would bother to complain about it.

    Sorry for the Hillary-ism.
    Bush began the drone program. Obama continued and expanded it. You can't look at one without the other. You know, the same drone program Trump just used to kill Soleimani. You're right, Hillary would likely be continuing the drone program. So much of our foreign policy and actions in the region are part of a generational through line that spans administrations.

    I've personally detested the drone program for a long time, and his killing of Anwar al-Alwaki and his son was beyond the pale for violations of both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    I'm sorry no one came to this bike forum to complain about a President the population generally liked for one terrible foreign policy choice they felt never impacted them personally? As bad as the Obama drone program was, it never crashed the Selective Service site for young people worried the draft was coming back for a war with Iran.

    I miss the days when the American government committed foreign atrocities in secret, rather than having the President howl at the moon about them on Twitter.
     

  2. #162
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbabcock View Post
    ...that is if you equate an American life as equal to the life of a non-American.
    I'll have to ponder that. You make a good point, but I see terrorism a bit differently than military actions. Maybe it's about time we stopped playing by defensible rules. Sometimes the only way to kill a rat is to get in the sewer with him.

    Was the killing of Bin-Ladin also "stooping to their level? Did we boast about it? Yeah, even though "we don't spike the ball", someone made a point to taking the credit time and time again.

    And in reality, a whole host of Nations will not tell us to "fuck off". In public they may condemn us, but that's as far as it will go.

    Alienated ourselves? Please produce the list of countries who have cut off ties with the US, returned our aid, and boycotted our business & exports.

    It must really grind some gears to know that our "idiot" President is going to be re-elected.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    I'll have to ponder that. You make a good point, but I see terrorism a bit differently than military actions. Maybe it's about time we stopped playing by defensible rules. Sometimes the only way to kill a rat is to get in the sewer with him.

    Was the killing of Bin-Ladin also "stooping to their level? Did we boast about it? Yeah, even though "we don't spike the ball", someone made a point to taking the credit time and time again.

    And in reality, a whole host of Nations will not tell us to "fuck off". In public they may condemn us, but that's as far as it will go.

    Alienated ourselves? Please produce the list of countries who have cut off ties with the US, returned our aid, and boycotted our business & exports.

    It must really grind some gears to know that our "idiot" President is going to be re-elected.
    Let's put the shoe on the other foot: Iran kills the head of US Central Command in a missile strike. Iran's Supreme Leader says it's justified because he's the head of a terrorist organization that trains and supports proxy groups via US special forces operators across the region. Those groups have killed Iranians, and by definition he's a terrorist that should die.

    Would you buy that argument?

    The claims Solemiani was a terrorist are precisely the rhetorical push by the administration to put him in the same league as Bin Laden and other non-state actors we've been pursuing for the last 20 years, when in reality he was someone vastly different.
     

  4. #164
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    State sanctioned murder should nearly always cause concern or be contentious.

    Likewise, the notion of an eye for an eye should be equally problematic. Granted it was put in the bible, but surely Gandhi's approach is the better way. If not, then stand in their shoes for a moment. From their perspective, what on earth would be wrong in deploying a drone when Trump went and visited his Scottish golf course?

    Please don't label me as of "the left" in raising these issues. It is a simplistic label or analysis to apply to commentary on an issue or issues that are very far from binary (state sanctioned terrorism, state sanctioned murder, the Middle East etc etc).
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    “Military actions” imply rules of war, and our president Seems to have just violated them. Even Republican Mike Lee is condemning their presentation justifying the actions... we are sacrificing the moral high ground.

    I’m on a phone, so can’t type out a whole bunch at the moment, but I will note that the folks perpetrating “terrorism” are likely to claim asymmetric warfare as opposed to terrorism. They would note whose territory the combat takes place on, the disparities in casualties, and the relative terror inflicted by skies occupied by flying “reaper” aircraft, Apache helicopters, and F-35 aircraft.

    I despise the death of any US soldier. I also despise the quagmire we seem to continually wade back into.
    Jason Babcock

  6. #166
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbabcock View Post
    I despise the death of any US soldier. I also despise the quagmire we seem to continually wade back into.
    We agree 100% here. Well said.
     

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Maybe it's about time we stopped playing by defensible rules.
    The defensible rules came in by and large following the horror of WW2. Not satisfied with the meat grinding killing machine that was WW1, everyone decided to do it again 20 years later, this time with greater effect. Bombing civilians (all sides), ethnic and religious homicide, cruel and unusual treatment of POWs, rape of non-combatants, revenge killings and so on. The structures and rules put in place after this war serve a useful purpose. Yes not everyone complies with them. Rather than rip the rule book up, we should be re-affirming it and bolstering it.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Alienated ourselves? Please produce the list of countries who have cut off ties with the US, returned our aid, and boycotted our business & exports.
    Well China sure didn’t seem to like our soybeans...so there is that. more importantly, by approaching foreign policy as we have, we have shifted power dynamics. Pew found, “ President Trump ranked below Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping in a new worldwide poll that asked respondents about their confidence in global leaders to "do the right thing" in world affairs.”
    Now I don’t really give a shit about how people view Trump, but when despots are seeing a positive bump in their image because of our leadership, I have a problem. I mean, Turkey is buying military equipment from Russia. China and their “pearls” strategy are suddenly a palatable ally.
    It’s an “own-goal” on a massive scale.

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    No one condoned it, but no one bothered to criticize it here either, did they? I'll answer: NO.

    Obama kills hundreds of people= crickets. Trump kills 5 people=8 pages (so far) of predominatly negative rants and name calling.
    How many of these killings were followed by funerals attended by hundred of thousand of people in a capital of a very sensitive part of the world ?
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    Exclamation Re: Middle east.

    General Qasem Soleimani was a violent terrorist within a violent, authoritarian, and repressive government.
    The so-called grieving "mourners" knew there was a substantial penalty for innocents *not* participating.
     

  11. #171
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    General Qasem Soleimani was a violent terrorist within a violent, authoritarian, and repressive government.
    The so-called grieving "mourners" knew there was a substantial penalty for innocents *not* participating.
    Isn´t America a violent society? Isn´t the celebrity culture opressive? Isn´t consummerism a kind of authoritarian environment where not having everything makes you a loser?
    How about the increasing suicide rate in the US? How is the drug, alcohol and medication abuse going?


    I don´t see iranians fleeing their country trying to cross US borders. It happens in countries subservient to western "aid"; where consummerism destroyed the archaic family structures.. structures like the ones you find in Iran. I don´t find Iran any more oppressive than feeling lonely in a highly competitive consummerist society. Sure they kill gays.. They ignore minorities. Now ask native americans and blacks how free they feel right now. The propaganda lost it´s punch.

    Isn´t it absurd to call other societies violent authoritharian and repressive when the level of unhappyness and frustration in your own society is reaching high levels? Maybe being old and poor in Iran is better than in the west.

    Things have changed. The old world is falling apart. No wonder we saw youngsters fleeing Europe to join radical Islamism in Syria.
    I came here for the socks.

  12. #172
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    I'll have to ponder that. You make a good point, but I see terrorism a bit differently than military actions. Maybe it's about time we stopped playing by defensible rules. Sometimes the only way to kill a rat is to get in the sewer with him.

    Was the killing of Bin-Ladin also "stooping to their level? Did we boast about it? Yeah, even though "we don't spike the ball", someone made a point to taking the credit time and time again.

    And in reality, a whole host of Nations will not tell us to "fuck off". In public they may condemn us, but that's as far as it will go.

    Alienated ourselves? Please produce the list of countries who have cut off ties with the US, returned our aid, and boycotted our business & exports.

    It must really grind some gears to know that our "idiot" President is going to be re-elected.
    I would rather not have any US aid but instead my native archaic family economy. Not only it makes life more meaningfull but better preserves nature resources.
    This is not the 60s or the 80s anymore. Less and less anyone finds any glamour in being a capitalist frontier. Consumerism is hell. Celebrity culture is horrible.
    There is a new order. Greta Thumberg is the icon and she is saying it´s over. It goes nowhere. Time to change.
    I came here for the socks.

  13. #173
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post
    Let's put the shoe on the other foot: Iran kills the head of US Central Command in a missile strike. Iran's Supreme Leader says it's justified because he's the head of a terrorist organization that trains and supports proxy groups via US special forces operators across the region. Those groups have killed Iranians, and by definition he's a terrorist that should die.

    Would you buy that argument?

    The claims Solemiani was a terrorist are precisely the rhetorical push by the administration to put him in the same league as Bin Laden and other non-state actors we've been pursuing for the last 20 years, when in reality he was someone vastly different.
    Terrorism is an easy word these days. I predict it will be used in the near future to justify non legal anihilation of anyone who defies law and order.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    General Qasem Soleimani was a violent terrorist within a violent, authoritarian, and repressive government.
    The so-called grieving "mourners" knew there was a substantial penalty for innocents *not* participating.
    Are you presuming that 'innocents' would be punished for not flocking to the streets to mourn? Where did you get this information?

    My admittedly limited understanding of the situation is that while not all Iranians liked Soleimani, the general consensus is that they felt safer with him alive than with him dead. His assassination turned him into something of a martyr for them to rally around, leading to the flocking to the streets to mourn.

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    I was initially cautiously supportive of the taking out of Soleimani. He's clearly a bad actor with blood on his hands and what was he doing in Iraq? But after watching events unfold and listening to the analysis I've concluded it was amateur hour on the part of Trump and his team. No capability was eliminated or ability to threaten u.s. forces , assets or interests. The risk/reward was simply not there. This isn't a moral argument but a pragmatic one.

    Listened to Mike Lee and some democrats talk about the briefing on why this needed to get done. Seems to me there was no pressing justification and it was largely administration hawks coming up with a justification and pretext for doing something they wanted to do anyway. Not good.

    Trump almost brought us into direct conflict with Iran. While we'd win it would come at great cost and sacrifice. Think Iraq on steroids. We'd need to commit ground troops and occupy. I'm convinced this happened because Trump's bench is green and thin and we no longer have a McMaster or Mattis around to bring some common sense to the decision making process. The decision wasn't even made at the White House but at Mara-a-lago which further suggests a visceral process.

    Well Trump's backed off. He no longer wants to go after cultural sites in Iran despite previously doubling down on an action the military would not have followed. We're going back to sanctions and he's now bringing up a negotiated settlement similar to the iran Nuclear deal and talking of engaging NATO on this, all of which wreaks of irony. It also tells me anyway Trump never anticipated the fall-out and reactions. He probably thought this was akin to taking out Baghdadi which was generally applauded.

    I'm no fan of this administration and I apologize to those I offend, but this is all too shambolic. If this were a fortunate 500 company the entire management team would have been terminated long ago -Mike G
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    General Qasem Soleimani was a violent terrorist within a violent, authoritarian, and repressive government.
    Terrorism is the definition of the foreign policy of the United States.

    The so-called grieving "mourners" knew there was a substantial penalty for innocents *not* participating.
    Did you ask them ?

    A population can be against the authoritarian nature of its government yet mourns and back its officials when they feel attacked by a foreign entity. + the enemy of my enemy is my friend can also apply.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 01-09-2020 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    President Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry were particularly notable for their poor negotiation.
    Iran's claims were baseless in consideration of their longtime support of violent and extreme terrorism.

    Try paying your AMEX bill a day late and the company will very likely slap a fee on the account.
    Same goes for Iran. Assets should be frozen forever. Pallets of cash should never have been sent.

    The likelihood of me feeling sorry for murderous jihadists crying about their finances is miniscule.
    Iran is obviously seeing the new reality that they are dealing with a POTUS who is not a pushover.
    Except you for you know, when they launched ballistic missiles at American military assets and he immediately backed down despite all of his bluster hours previous.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    If this were a fortunate 500 company the entire management team would have been terminated long ago -Mike G
    It doesn't even need to be a Fortune 500 company. The kind of petty self-dealing Trump regularly engages in would get him booted from any publicly traded company immediately.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    Isn´t America a violent society? Isn´t the celebrity culture opressive? Isn´t consummerism a kind of authoritarian environment where not having everything makes you a loser?
    How about the increasing suicide rate in the US? How is the drug, alcohol and medication abuse going?
    .
    Please don’t lose perspective of what Iran actually is when you act as an apologist for this horrid country.

    The following is a quote from Human Rights Watch’s 2019 report on Iran.

    “Iranian law considers acts such as “insulting the prophet,” “apostasy,” same-sex relations, adultery, and certain non-violent drug-related offenses as crimes punishable by death.”

    It’s bizarre to compare American ‘celebrity culture oppression’ or american consumerism with the daily life in Iran.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post

    Alienated ourselves? Please produce the list of countries who have cut off ties with the US, returned our aid, and boycotted our business & exports.
    Iraq started the process: Will U.S. troops be kicked out of Iraq? - POLITICO

    This isn't an either or situation. Even if this doesn't result in US troops getting kicked out of Iraq (which will severely hurt our ability to project force in the region) it still generates a lot of ill will and makes it more difficult for the US to achieve desired policy goals (defeating ISIS for example).

    other bonehead foreign policy moves by this administration have resulted in a pretty serious economic hit to our farmers (trade war with China) and the US ceding trade leadership in the pacific (pulling out of the TPP).

    Trump has been burning though a lot of political capital for minimal if any gains.
     

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