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Thread: Middle east.

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Edit that - plane didn’t turn or otherwise deviate from its planned course. The Iranians just shot it down.
    I was going to mention earlier that it would have been simple to clear the airspace, just to make it more believable but the details keep getting refined. The Iranians just stepped on their dicks here. It's telling that nothing else has happened from a nation that was "just beginning" to respond. I don't think we let them hit our bases with a promise to hit areas away from people. The Iranians aren't that good, they're like 50/50 that their missiles hit the target. The US can put a Tomahawk through a window from 800 miles away. Just saying.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    I was going to mention earlier that it would have been simple to clear the airspace, just to make it more believable but the details keep getting refined. The Iranians just stepped on their dicks here. It's telling that nothing else has happened from a nation that was "just beginning" to respond. I don't think we let them hit our bases with a promise to hit areas away from people. The Iranians aren't that good, they're like 50/50 that their missiles hit the target. The US can put a Tomahawk through a window from 800 miles away. Just saying.
    but can they do it without killing a bunch of civilians? just asking.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    The Iranians aren't that good, they're like 50/50 that their missiles hit the target. The US can put a Tomahawk through a window from 800 miles away. Just saying.
    The one flaw here is that this military technology is operated by humans. Hence a US warship inside Iranian waters (allegedly) shot down a passenger jet thinking it was a fighter plane. Or a wedding in Iraq was bombed and shelled.

    Maybe commercial flights should have been grounded, but for one reason or another an operator of a missile system fired on a passenger jet. As in the above two examples, a number of innocent people died and that is a tragedy.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by takashi View Post
    but can they do it without killing a bunch of civilians? just asking.
    Actually, the US military has been using guided concrete bombs for a decade or more. Two thousand pounds of concrete going 400 knots will collapse a building without explosions or fire. But yeah, too many civilians get killed regardless. During the early days of OEF, the Taliban would use walled compounds to gather in groups. They traveled with their families and any airstrike on a walled compound resulted in many innocents dying. There's no "good war".
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    Any system where laws can be changed by referendum is highly dangerous. Law is based on principle. It should not be changed according to circumstance or peopleīs whims. You change politicians by vote... not the law. If the US had a system where the constitution could be changed according to waves of opinions situation would be way worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    I couldn’t agree more. Folks that think that freedom & democracy is simply another term for ‘majority rules‘ are mistaken.
    This is powerfully dumb. I challenge either of you to present some essential principle that all morality can be derived from. There is abundant evidence that ethics, morality, and law are cultural, fluctuating, and nearly always internally contradictory. Try harder.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by animalarmament View Post
    This is powerfully dumb. I challenge either of you to present some essential principle that all morality can be derived from. There is abundant evidence that ethics, morality, and law are cultural, fluctuating, and nearly always internally contradictory. Try harder.
    I agree with this idea
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    So did Jeremy Bentham..

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    From what I have heard from friends who know what is going on in the annals of our State Department as well as pals over in Iran- The United States was caught pretty unaware by the Iranian attack. They failed to shoot down a single missile despite knowing that Iran would likely respond is just such a manner. The Iranians also hit their targets with a far great accuracy than US intelligence believed possible.

    Iran's response was incredibly measured and showcased two important things to the United States, the World and their own population. Firstly, Iran behaved like a first world "civilized" country. It hit military targets, did not target civilians, and showed a great deal of restraint. Typically in asymetrical conflict- weaker antagonists don't play by the same rules. The Iranians flipped the script- and came across as being the more measured and moral party to the conflict while the United States looked like the terrorist, the instigator, the ends justify the means, and the weaker more desperate and unhinged party.

    Even the US government recognized this and basically praised Iran for deescalating the conflict in response to their attack on American military assets with multiple missiles!

    Watching what has happened in Iran regarding the tragedy of the downed Ukrainian 737 is truly a fascinating and even more telling experience. It telegraphs to the world a couple of things: firstly- Iranians generally have faith in their government and believe it to be legitimate and not evil and generally well intentioned. They also believe it to be generally out of touch, lagging behind the populace in terms of values, policies, and opinion on how the country should be run. Iranians came out in the millions for the the services celebrating the life of their murdered general. They also came out in incredibly large number to protest the tragic downing of the Ukrainian passenger jet. The fact that they waited to do this until their government completed its investigation and admitted responsibility is amazing. It shows a civic trust that one would naturally assume is missing in a "dictatorship" an " illegitimate regime", a "bandit terrorist state" as Americans generally view it. People were enraged that this accident happened and were comfortable with coming out on the streets to protest. To me this shows an incredible stability and legitimacy in the system in Iran. People do feel that it is their country and their government.

    The second interesting thing is that this happened just days after Iran was the subject of belligerent rhetoric threatening war, attacks on its civilian culturally important places, and the overthrow of its government by the government of the most powerful nation in the world- a nation who coincidentally just murdered an important general in cold blood.

    Iran is truly coming across as a civilized, modern, educated, and democratic nation because of all of this. Nothing that has happened could occur in a dictatorship or in a country where the population didn't feel empowered or viewed their government as oppressive and illegitimate. It's truly been an example of civic responsibility and democracy in action. Iran is messy- it's plagued by a disproportionate amount of power being in the hands of elderly right wing mullahs who are generally far more conservative than the the population as a whole. On the other hand, there are vibrant democratic institutions at work in Iran and much power lies with folks who were elected by and represent the Iranian people. The country demographically is extremely young- and Iranians can vote at a younger age than just about any country in the world. Khomeini's ideas concerning women, personal freedoms, and economics- which were always far more progressive than Sunni Islamists- and were often even more progressive than self declared secular socialist Middle Eastern governments- are now the view of a decreasing number of mostly older, less educated, more rural Iranians. The vast majority of the country even the vast majority of young urban Iranians- still fully support the Islamic Republican form of government. They don't want a Western European style government- but they do want Political Shia Islam to evolve with the needs and material conditions of the Iranian people. It's incredibly encouraging to see this young, giant country finding its place in the world and its people moving their country towards where they want it to be while in the crosshairs of the most powerful nation on earth. The fact that they were able to stand up to America, endure the horrible tragedy of this civilian air tragedy, and be where they are- is a credit to the Iranian people and their democracy.
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  9. #329
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by animalarmament View Post
    This is powerfully dumb. I challenge either of you to present some essential principle that all morality can be derived from. There is abundant evidence that ethics, morality, and law are cultural, fluctuating, and nearly always internally contradictory. Try harder.
    LOL. Itīs simpler than that: there is the constitution and itīs laws which were drawn based on principles. Period. Next... you have circumstances like a wave of opinion comes up begging for censorship of newspapers because itīs all contaminated by leftism or obscenity whatever, right? Wrong. The old constitution says itīs freedom of speech. End of story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    From what I have heard from friends who know what is going on in the annals of our State Department as well as pals over in Iran- The United States was caught pretty unaware by the Iranian attack. They failed to shoot down a single missile despite knowing that Iran would likely respond is just such a manner. The Iranians also hit their targets with a far great accuracy than US intelligence believed possible.

    Iran's response was incredibly measured and showcased two important things to the United States, the World and their own population. Firstly, Iran behaved like a first world "civilized" country. It hit military targets, did not target civilians, and showed a great deal of restraint. Typically in asymetrical conflict- weaker antagonists don't play by the same rules. The Iranians flipped the script- and came across as being the more measured and moral party to the conflict while the United States looked like the terrorist, the instigator, the ends justify the means, and the weaker more desperate and unhinged party.

    Even the US government recognized this and basically praised Iran for deescalating the conflict in response to their attack on American military assets with multiple missiles!

    Watching what has happened in Iran regarding the tragedy of the downed Ukrainian 737 is truly a fascinating and even more telling experience. It telegraphs to the world a couple of things: firstly- Iranians generally have faith in their government and believe it to be legitimate and not evil and generally well intentioned. They also believe it to be generally out of touch, lagging behind the populace in terms of values, policies, and opinion on how the country should be run. Iranians came out in the millions for the the services celebrating the life of their murdered general. They also came out in incredibly large number to protest the tragic downing of the Ukrainian passenger jet. The fact that they waited to do this until their government completed its investigation and admitted responsibility is amazing. It shows a civic trust that one would naturally assume is missing in a "dictatorship" an " illegitimate regime", a "bandit terrorist state" as Americans generally view it. People were enraged that this accident happened and were comfortable with coming out on the streets to protest. To me this shows an incredible stability and legitimacy in the system in Iran. People do feel that it is their country and their government.

    The second interesting thing is that this happened just days after Iran was the subject of belligerent rhetoric threatening war, attacks on its civilian culturally important places, and the overthrow of its government by the government of the most powerful nation in the world- a nation who coincidentally just murdered an important general in cold blood.

    Iran is truly coming across as a civilized, modern, educated, and democratic nation because of all of this. Nothing that has happened could occur in a dictatorship or in a country where the population didn't feel empowered or viewed their government as oppressive and illegitimate. It's truly been an example of civic responsibility and democracy in action. Iran is messy- it's plagued by a disproportionate amount of power being in the hands of elderly right wing mullahs who are generally far more conservative than the the population as a whole. On the other hand, there are vibrant democratic institutions at work in Iran and much power lies with folks who were elected by and represent the Iranian people. The country demographically is extremely young- and Iranians can vote at a younger age than just about any country in the world. Khomeini's ideas concerning women, personal freedoms, and economics- which were always far more progressive than Sunni Islamists- and were often even more progressive than self declared secular socialist Middle Eastern governments- are now the view of a decreasing number of mostly older, less educated, more rural Iranians. The vast majority of the country even the vast majority of young urban Iranians- still fully support the Islamic Republican form of government. They don't want a Western European style government- but they do want Political Shia Islam to evolve with the needs and material conditions of the Iranian people. It's incredibly encouraging to see this young, giant country finding its place in the world and its people moving their country towards where they want it to be while in the crosshairs of the most powerful nation on earth. The fact that they were able to stand up to America, endure the horrible tragedy of this civilian air tragedy, and be where they are- is a credit to the Iranian people and their democracy.
    Now that makes sense.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by animalarmament View Post
    This is powerfully dumb. I challenge either of you to present some essential principle that all morality can be derived from. There is abundant evidence that ethics, morality, and law are cultural, fluctuating, and nearly always internally contradictory. Try harder.
    Law is the garanty of every individual against fluctuating ethics and morality including lynching, ethnic cleansing, sexism, religious fanaticism or any brutal decision from a popular political eader to please the mob.
    Repressive, authoritarian communist societies have fluctuating moralities. MOrality there is the needs of the official party and it changes according to the needs of class struggle which is a strategy not principle.
    The essential principle on which the US was built is freedom because freedom is the path to happynness, not Godīs will, mob rage or official political party decision number 53. Itīs laws reflect this basic principle.
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  12. #332
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    IMG_5481.JPG

    You'd hope that people would wise up.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    IMG_5481.JPG

    You'd hope that people would wise up.
    People won't wise up. It's sadly in our nature. All a despot needs is to pick an enemy and get the people to unite behind him. Change "pacifists" to "democrats/liberals/the media" and you have our bizarro world today. Trump may be a terrible human being, but he's a very talented rabble rouser.

    Greg
     

  14. #334
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    ^^^ sadly history shows that you're correct. It reminds me of a very on point twilight zone episode. The futurists understand the human condition extremely well; it's a tragedy that the bulk of our electorate isn't quite so savvy: The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street

    The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street - Wikipedia
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    LOL. Itīs simpler than that: there is the constitution and itīs laws which were drawn based on principles. Period. Next... you have circumstances like a wave of opinion comes up begging for censorship of newspapers because itīs all contaminated by leftism or obscenity whatever, right? Wrong. The old constitution says itīs freedom of speech. End of story.
    You hand-waved away the core criticism of your position, built a strawman, and declared victory. How were these pronciples on which the constitution was allegedly based on derived? I give you an F-
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by animalarmament View Post
    You hand-waved away the core criticism of your position, built a strawman, and declared victory. How were these pronciples on which the constitution was allegedly based on derived? I give you an F-
    There was only one principle: the search for individual happyness. I could elaborate but ... Btw since your "morality is just circumstance and culture" i suppose you would not refuse human flesh given the right time and place. How about incest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    goo goo gaa gaa
    .
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by animalarmament View Post
    .
    That was fast.. i thought you would try to hide it for longer. Good it didnīt waste too much of our time.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    So as the administration's reasoning continues to evolve, without producing any evidence, there's this gem from NBC News. This wasn't to prevent anything, this was a reprisal killing of the sort you see in the Old Testament. How gloriously stupid: Trump authorized Soleimani'''s killing 7 months ago, with conditions
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post
    So as the administration's reasoning continues to evolve, without producing any evidence, there's this gem from NBC News. This wasn't to prevent anything, this was a reprisal killing of the sort you see in the Old Testament. How gloriously stupid: Trump authorized Soleimani'''s killing 7 months ago, with conditions
    That's the problem with an administration run by pathological liars.

    Many Iranians are also incensed that their gov't lied to them about the fate of 176 people on Flight 752,
    first saying that it was an accident, then having to admit they shot it down. The US gov't should have
    more credibility on the world stage, sadly they burned that bridge a long time ago, have joined the ranks
    of loony dictatorships and banana republics that routinely proclaim day is night.

    Even US allies don't believe much, if anything this administration says.

    -g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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