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Thread: Middle east.

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Shit happens when you start a fight. Barring remarkable information this one appears to be on the US. And how are we better off or as Florida's Chief Demagogue Marco Rubio claims on his FB page a "safer, stronger America".

    My head is spinning to think that anyone who isn't a psychopath can still support Trump. On the other hand, what's the percentage of the population that's within the psychopathic spectrum? Seems like I read that it was in the low teens, back one day when I was wondering why folks threaten or kill bicyclists with their automobiles. (NB: it is far lower, around 1% it appears, for diagnosable folks, but what I found earlier, if memory serves, wasn't the full on diagnosable individuals but those who had at least some small tendency in that direction....folks who wouldn't lose too terribly much sleep for running over a cyclist)

    Whether the roots be organic or lousy programming, a lot of humans are functionally stupid. In an exchange elsewhere a Trump supporter remarked to me "you're an engineer, you should be able to analyze things better" (as in support Trump); he then stated that "God wanted Trump to make us the leader in oil and gas". No kidding.

    Stepping back from all of the idealogical arguments, well it's really just chaff, just backing away far enough to see the whole thing and it's difficult for me to believe that adults could think that Trump, Pompeo & Co are a positive, constructive group of peeps. It's like building bicycle frames or anything else; you need to step back sometimes, take the whole thing in visually and see if it looks right. This obviously doesn't.

    I'm glad that Iran's rulers apparently had the sense to be able to save face without causing Trump to lose his. In an era when survival, economic, environmental, any metric you choose, requires major course corrections based on reality and smart, strategic thinking, the Trump circus is the team flying the airplane? This is our "A Team"? Humanity, hell everything alive, is in deep shit.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    I may be reading into this but it suggests Pompeo may have gilded the lilly a bit with his claim of an imminent attack. This is from a FOX news interview. I expect some obfuscation or twisting of truth in all administrations but this administration seems to me more mendacious by scales of 10 than any in recent memory -Mike G

    In an interview with Fox News, he said, "There is no doubt that there were a series of imminent attacks being planned by [Qasem Soleimani]". "We don't know precisely when, and we don't know precisely where, but it was real".
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    My view is that the United States can't and must not shy away from the necessary use of force but that Congress not taking its responsibilities seriously which includes oversight and debating the use of force leads to Presidents who take unwise actions that lead to a backlash. What irks me most about Trump's action isn't that we took out a bad guy is that the decision making process appears flawed , was done viscerally and the justification contrived. -Mike G
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    I may be reading into this but it suggests Pompeo may have gilded the lilly a bit with his claim of an imminent attack. This is from a FOX news interview. I expect some obfuscation or twisting of truth in all administrations but this administration seems to me more mendacious by scales of 10 than any in recent memory -Mike G

    In an interview with Fox News, he said, "There is no doubt that there were a series of imminent attacks being planned by [Qasem Soleimani]". "We don't know precisely when, and we don't know precisely where, but it was real".
    Youíre not reading into anything. Youíre simply calling it as it is. These people lie about everything. Always. Itís an immutable law of the Trump admin. The tone was set on day one when Spicey lied about the inaugural crowd.

    Killing Soleimani was all about Trump and his insatiable need for attention, distraction and over compensation. If one believes otherwise, they deserve to have ďGULLIBLE DUPEĒ branded on their forehead.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    My view is that the United States can't and must not shy away from the necessary use of force but that Congress not taking its responsibilities seriously which includes oversight and debating the use of force leads to Presidents who take unwise actions that lead to a backlash. What irks me most about Trump's action isn't that we took out a bad guy is that the decision making process appears flawed , was done viscerally and the justification contrived. -Mike G
    I think you're missing the larger point. We have become one of the "bad guys". We're so wrapped up in thinking that we're correct and that we have the right to interfere in the affairs of other countries that we can't see it. And from a practical perspective we're being stupid; were squandering our resources and whatever time is left to evolve our infrastructure and expectations to a world that's accelerating into a number of exestintial crises.

    We didn't have the right to help knock over Iran's government, for oil, in 1953. We didn't have the right to train South and Central American death squads in our "School of The Americas" at Ft Benning. We didn't have the right to get involved in Viet Nam in what was a civil war related to throwing off the French colonial yoke, ironically after ignoring Ho Chi Minh's earlier entities for assistance in developing a democratic government. The list of our transgressions is depressingly long.
    John Clay
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    I think you're missing the larger point; and we have become one of the "bad guys".
    taking out Suleimani didn't make us a bad guy, it made us a stupid guy. I won't mourn over his death. I simply think it was stupidly thought out. -Mike G
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    I think you're missing the larger point. We have become one of the "bad guys". We're so wrapped up in thinking that we're correct and that we have the right to interfere in the affairs of other countries that we can't see it. And from a practical perspective we're being stupid; were squandering our resources and whatever time is left to evolve our infrastructure and expectations to a world that's accelerating into a number of exestintial crises.

    We didn't have the right to help knock over Iran's government, for oil, in 1953. We didn't have the right to train South and Central American death squads in our "School of The Americas" at Ft Benning. We didn't have the right to get involved in Viet Nam in what was a civil war related to throwing off the French colonial yoke, ironically after ignoring Ho Chi Minh's earlier entities for assistance in developing a democratic government. The list of our transgressions is depressingly long.
    Add the US role in overthrowing the democratically elected government of Guatemala in 1954, the rigging of the 1957 election in Lebanon to favor Christians (which lead to the Muslim revolt and civil war in 1958), the US role in the assassination of Zaire's Lumumba, the overthrowing of Chile's elected government in 1973, dozens of assassination attempts on Premier Fidel Castro... The US did those things for the good of mankind and the rights of all men, regardless of nationstate, right? But when Russia or Iran interferes with the US election, it amounts to terrorism that must be punished.

    Realpolitik anyone? As George Kennan so aptly put it in 1948,
    Quote Originally Posted by George Kennan
    "We have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real test in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world benefaction - unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards, and democratization."
    The US has been the "bad guys" for a long time, it's just that most Americans don't recognize it because of the continual facade that things like this are done for altruistic means, rather than personal interests or multinational corporate interests (see International Telephone and Telegraph and the destabilization of Allende's government in Chile for more on that). The US spends more $$ on its military, enforcing hegemony by its own standards of "right and wrong," than all other nations combined. Whatever happened to self-determination? I don't support executions for homosexuality either, but I'm not a citizen of a country that does and I don't fancy myself so right and important that I can decide what is right for them.
    "Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants."

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    You're right. It makes no sense at all.

    Why were so many Canadians on the flight?
    "Canadian" is a citizenship designation, not an ethnicity, so you could be Canadian and also be from almost anywhere in the world with family to visit wherever that is. Also Iranians often go elsewhere for school, and Canada has some terrific engineering and medical schools. The nurse practitioner at our doctor's office is Iranian and studied at McMaster, which is a great school. The largest population of Iranians outside of Iran is in the United States, but Canada must be second.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastupslowdown View Post
    taking out Suleimani didn't make us a bad guy, it made us a stupid guy. I won't mourn over his death. I simply think it was stupidly thought out. -Mike G
    1) He is one data point in a very large data set. As long as we evaluate these sorts of actions as isolated events we will keep on doing stupid things.

    2) Do you know enough about this guy, adequately understand the decades of US/Western meddling in Middle Eastern affairs and understand the perspectives of people in that region to know that his actions have been unreasonable from their perspective?

    A Hypothetical:
    China garrisons the USA to stop the Branch Dividans from blowing up big box stores, claiming "national interest"; their products are getting destroyed instead of being purchased. They're pretty destructive to us generally. Over a couple of decades US militia members have killed some hundreds of Chinese military personnel; Oliver North is the leader of our milita and also, remarkably, has been trying to broker some positive movement amongst our Central American neighbors who are similarly weary of the Chinese presence and the crippling economic sanctions they've imposed and which includes a large portion of the population that opposes the Branch Dividians. China rips up a nascent agreement that, given the time required for such things to bear fruit, might have been a stepping stone to an improved situation or another stepping stone in that direction, for all. A little while later Ollie is assassinated.

    Who's the bad guy?
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    None of that makes sense. Did it make more sense in your head before you typed it ?
    It makes more sense to me than american policy in the middle east right now.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Saudis? The regime that jails the female victims of rape for the crime of adultery?

    I certainly wouldnít become an apologist for the kingdom if we took out their mastermind terrorist after they attacked our troops & burned our embassy. Based on your position so far on Iran, can I assume that you would ?
    You keep claiming that we're apologists for a murdering general. Do you have any pics of us saluting a general of a totalitarian regime that's enslaved and murdered millions, spread terror around the world and developed nuclear weapons?

     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    I think you're missing the larger point. We have become one of the "bad guys". We're so wrapped up in thinking that we're correct and that we have the right to interfere in the affairs of other countries that we can't see it. And from a practical perspective we're being stupid; were squandering our resources and whatever time is left to evolve our infrastructure and expectations to a world that's accelerating into a number of exestintial crises.

    We didn't have the right to help knock over Iran's government, for oil, in 1953. We didn't have the right to train South and Central American death squads in our "School of The Americas" at Ft Benning. We didn't have the right to get involved in Viet Nam in what was a civil war related to throwing off the French colonial yoke, ironically after ignoring Ho Chi Minh's earlier entities for assistance in developing a democratic government. The list of our transgressions is depressingly long.
    John, when you're not throwing rocks at Trump and your neighbors and fellow Americans who voted for him, - lowering yourself to the level you criticize Trump lives in - you produce this gem that I can get on board with.

    Historically, at times I believe our leaders were doing the right thing, others were true WTF moments. Without taking this thread on a completely different path to relive the past, at least this conservative agrees with you.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    this conservative
    You cannot call yourself a conservative if you support Trump. "Trumpism" is a mishmash of ideologies, certain limited elements of which might borrow from "conservatism." At its core, Trumpism is fascism for the twenty-first century.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorsCat View Post
    You cannot call yourself a conservative if you support Trump. "Trumpism" is a mishmash of ideologies, certain limited elements of which might borrow from "conservatism." At its core, Trumpism is fascism for the twenty-first century.
    ^^^^this^^^^. I'm a life-long republican. I'm conservative on finance, law-enforcement, and defense. I support the second amendment. I'm happy to debate policy with my liberal and democratic friends and family members. But I wouldn't vote for Trump if he was the last republican on earth. He's a 21st century Joseph McCarthy minus the raging alcoholism. I've met Mr. Trump in a private, unguarded setting. At the time, he was nothing more than a punchline. My colleagues and I had to stifle laughter at his raging ego. That he has been elected to the highest office in the United States should be frightening to anyone who values the Constitution.

    Greg
     

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    Post Re: Middle east.

    President Trump is clearly having a productive week at work. We should all be this efficient.
    By Thursday he had eliminated the world's worst terrorist, won WWIII, and held a huge rally.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    Shit happens when you start a fight. Barring remarkable information this one appears to be on the US. And how are we better off or as Florida's Chief Demagogue Marco Rubio claims on his FB page a "safer, stronger America".

    My head is spinning to think that anyone who isn't a psychopath can still support Trump. On the other hand, what's the percentage of the population that's within the psychopathic spectrum? Seems like I read that it was in the low teens, back one day when I was wondering why folks threaten or kill bicyclists with their automobiles. (NB: it is far lower, around 1% it appears, for diagnosable folks, but what I found earlier, if memory serves, wasn't the full on diagnosable individuals but those who had at least some small tendency in that direction....folks who wouldn't lose too terribly much sleep for running over a cyclist)

    Whether the roots be organic or lousy programming, a lot of humans are functionally stupid. In an exchange elsewhere a Trump supporter remarked to me "you're an engineer, you should be able to analyze things better" (as in support Trump); he then stated that "God wanted Trump to make us the leader in oil and gas". No kidding.

    Stepping back from all of the idealogical arguments, well it's really just chaff, just backing away far enough to see the whole thing and it's difficult for me to believe that adults could think that Trump, Pompeo & Co are a positive, constructive group of peeps. It's like building bicycle frames or anything else; you need to step back sometimes, take the whole thing in visually and see if it looks right. This obviously doesn't.

    I'm glad that Iran's rulers apparently had the sense to be able to save face without causing Trump to lose his. In an era when survival, economic, environmental, any metric you choose, requires major course corrections based on reality and smart, strategic thinking, the Trump circus is the team flying the airplane? This is our "A Team"? Humanity, hell everything alive, is in deep shit.
    This post is awesome. Id add selfish to Psychopaths. Selfish folks who think something is being taken from them seem to really like trump. Oh, and Guns, some of my idiot friends still think the other side will take their guns while trump has saved their guns. shocking this is a single issue people vote on (maybe psychopaths need their guns that bad?).

    Id like to hear the rational trump supporters explain why they are still on board specifically with Trump, I get being republican, i voted for 3 of them in our last local election, but Trump? seriously?. i mean there's other republicans to vote for. And there are real human beings too, why this one? hes not very good, any time hes on camera he sounds like a moron trying to read the prompter, we all know that, why hold on? makes my head spin too. its odd to try some moral high ground while holding onto this Trump support, very bizarre, yes, step outside and look back in and see how bizarre that looks. i am shocked every day that Americans know full stop they are being lied to and just eat it for breakfast with their Fox News (though even Fox News has had quite a few characters spouting a lack of support for this action, Giraldo, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, Tucker Carlson)

    here is tucker carlson, maybe you guys missed this on the chosen ones channel?
    Carlson's primary argument was this: "Before we enter into a single new war, there's a criterion that ought to be met: Our leaders should explain to us how that conflict will make the United States richer and more secure. There are an awful lot of bad people in this world, we can't kill them all. It's not our job. Instead, our government exists to defend and promote the interests of American citizens, period, that's why we have a government. So has the killing of Soleimani done that? Maybe. No one in Washington has explained how. Instead, like Ben Sasse, they're telling us what an awful person he was. He clearly was. So? That's irrelevant.

    "We fought quite a number of wars around the Middle East in recent decades," Carlson said, listing off the war zones. "In every single place," he said, "each of these conflicts has turned out to be longer and bloodier and more expensive than we were promised in the first place. The benefits? Often they've been non-existent. A lot of lectures about how the people we're killing deserve to die. Certainly they did. Hope that makes you feel better."
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Excellent, reasonable, nuanced, and thoughtful post 221 above, DJB. Thank you.
    How you post this and then good week at work thing is weird. Its thoughtful for DJB to outline what basically everyone else has said in the post, (tragedy, short term maybe good, long term certainly bad, low point for us and DJT). then go on about the best week at work ending with a rally? whats with your little baby games like this? bizarre

    and: related to the discussion of Trump is not a conservative:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...173_story.html
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    once more:
    The Democrats must become a real anti-war party | Hamilton Nolan | Opinion | The Guardian

    The gravitational pull of the US military and its more than $700bn budget warps our national politics like a black hole. It is plainly insane. It sucks up money that could be spent improving lives rather than planning to destroy them; it sucks up human talent that could be put to more beneficial use than blowing things up; and, like all bureaucracies, the military tends to create the conditions to sustain itself – in this case, a profusion of congressmen with military bases and defense contractors in their districts, who see forever wars as useful employment boosters.

    Not the political talking point of “peace through strength”, but peace through justice, a genuine acknowledgment that our empire-building days need to end, because all they do is get poor people killed in exchange for making rich people richer.
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octave View Post
    Add the US role in overthrowing the democratically elected government of Guatemala in 1954, the rigging of the 1957 election in Lebanon to favor Christians (which lead to the Muslim revolt and civil war in 1958), the US role in the assassination of Zaire's Lumumba, the overthrowing of Chile's elected government in 1973, dozens of assassination attempts on Premier Fidel Castro... The US did those things for the good of mankind and the rights of all men, regardless of nationstate, right? But when Russia or Iran interferes with the US election, it amounts to terrorism that must be punished.

    Realpolitik anyone? As George Kennan so aptly put it in 1948,

    The US has been the "bad guys" for a long time, it's just that most Americans don't recognize it because of the continual facade that things like this are done for altruistic means, rather than personal interests or multinational corporate interests (see International Telephone and Telegraph and the destabilization of Allende's government in Chile for more on that). The US spends more $$ on its military, enforcing hegemony by its own standards of "right and wrong," than all other nations combined. Whatever happened to self-determination? I don't support executions for homosexuality either, but I'm not a citizen of a country that does and I don't fancy myself so right and important that I can decide what is right for them.
    Moral relativism has no place when people are murdered for simply being who they are. Killing gay people isn't something that is "right" for some cultures and not for others. It's just evil, abhorrent behavior. You can comfortably decide that for Earth, let alone Iran.
     

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