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Thread: Middle east.

  1. #181
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Please don’t lose perspective of what Iran actually is when you act as an apologist for this horrid country.

    The following is a quote from Human Rights Watch’s 2019 report on Iran.

    “Iranian law considers acts such as “insulting the prophet,” “apostasy,” same-sex relations, adultery, and certain non-violent drug-related offenses as crimes punishable by death.”

    It’s bizarre to compare American ‘celebrity culture oppression’ or american consumerism with the daily life in Iran.
    You need to learn to distinguish between the country and its government. “Horrid” isn’t how I’d describe any of the Iranians I know.

    As for the Iranian law you cite, let’s not lose sight of the fact that many in the GOP, including President Impeached’s veep and SOS (among others) would like for that to be the law in the US, too.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorsCat View Post
    You need to learn to distinguish between the country and its government. “Horrid” isn’t how I’d describe any of the Iranians I know.
    You need to learn to distinguish between a country and it’s people. Any country that creates and enforces a law that executes it’s own citizens for adultery or homosexuality is a horrid place. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorsCat View Post
    As for the Iranian law you cite, let’s not lose sight of the fact that many in the GOP, including President Impeached’s veep and SOS (among others) would like for that to be the law in the US, too.
    Profoundly untrue.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Please don’t lose perspective of what Iran actually is when you act as an apologist for this horrid country.

    The following is a quote from Human Rights Watch’s 2019 report on Iran.

    “Iranian law considers acts such as “insulting the prophet,” “apostasy,” same-sex relations, adultery, and certain non-violent drug-related offenses as crimes punishable by death.”

    It’s bizarre to compare American ‘celebrity culture oppression’ or american consumerism with the daily life in Iran.
    They have bad opinions about the west just as well and some of those opinions make sense: the kind of archaic patriarchal morality of Iran gives respect to elders and sometimes that makes for a better environment. I don´t want to be an old person in LA or NY or any other highly sexualized western city.
    Iran has intellectuals, writers, architects, film makers... just like any other country and they don´t want to be americans.
    I myself believe western culture right now is at a low bottom and mostly because social media: everything is fake but that´s another issue.
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  4. #184
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by zachateseverything View Post
    Iraq started the process: Will U.S. troops be kicked out of Iraq? - POLITICO

    Trump has been burning though a lot of political capital for minimal if any gains.
    A list of a single "maybe"...

    Whataboutism of the morning: Anyone remember "Arab Spring"? How'd that work out?

    The current administration isn't the only one who make bad choices in this region. I'm not entirely sure there is a "right" way to do things over there, no matter who's in the White House.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    A list of a single "maybe"...

    Whataboutism of the morning: Anyone remember "Arab Spring"? How'd that work out?

    The current administration isn't the only one who make bad choices in this region. I'm not entirely sure there is a "right" way to do things over there, no matter who's in the White House.
    What about the Arab spring? It´s their business, their right to self determination. They are not imposing sharia in the US.
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  6. #186
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    [QUOTE=Dallas Tex;984712]You need to learn to distinguish between a country and it’s people. Any country that creates and enforces a law that executes it’s own citizens for adultery or homosexuality is a horrid place. Period.

    It is worth noting that this was the law in our country back at the beginning. Adultery was a capital crime, as was homosexuality. We have moved forward from there to a more enlightened present. I think it is fair to say that there are those in this country who have a rather Old Testament view and would like to enforce its precepts on the rest of us.

    "Whataboutism of the morning: Anyone remember "Arab Spring"? How'd that work out?'

    Indeed, what did the US do when a duly elected head of state was incarcerated and sentenced to death? Spring is not welcome here or anywhere else.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    A list of a single "maybe"...

    Whataboutism of the morning: Anyone remember "Arab Spring"? How'd that work out?

    The current administration isn't the only one who make bad choices in this region. I'm not entirely sure there is a "right" way to do things over there, no matter who's in the White House.
    We're talking about the week after a assassination. The full ramifications will take a long while to play out.
     

  8. #188
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    Cool Re: Middle east.

    Suggested brief guidelines for speaking with family members about changes with Iran and related diplomacy:

    How to talk to family members about Iran
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    "There is also the problem of Trump himself. Because killing Soleimani was very much his decision—reflecting the impulsiveness and disarray a decision by him implies—it seems fair to assume that one’s view of the president will affect how one interprets the fallout from Soleimani’s killing."

    All I needed to read.

    The author makes the grand assumption here, as many Trump distractors do.
    I doubt Mr Shadi Hamid was in the White House during tactical meetings to actually know what went on, who made the suggestion, who presented pros & cons, etc.
    It "seems fair to assume" Mr Hamid's view of the President and HIS future interpretations.
     

  11. #191
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Trump was not in the White House.

    etc:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...08f_story.html
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    "There is also the problem of Trump himself. Because killing Soleimani was very much his decision—reflecting the impulsiveness and disarray a decision by him implies—it seems fair to assume that one’s view of the president will affect how one interprets the fallout from Soleimani’s killing."

    All I needed to read.

    The author makes the grand assumption here, as many Trump distractors do.
    I doubt Mr Shadi Hamid was in the White House during tactical meetings to actually know what went on, who made the suggestion, who presented pros & cons, etc.
    It "seems fair to assume" Mr Hamid's view of the President and HIS future interpretations.
    but what if this is exactly the worst of it? i mean its not without possibility or merit, the President is not normal, not even in a weirdo kind of way, like he's hardly human. you've seen video of him right? and you've heard him say he knows more about weapons than the guy who designed them, he knows more about this kind of war than the generals, he knows more about walls than pink floyd, he knows more about everything than everyone about anything. you don't think there's potential danger there to the point you'd stop reading if someone suggested that how you see trump affects how this all plays out? "Correcting for subconscious bias isn’t easy, but at the very least, observers should be aware of the Trump effect." he actually states awareness of bias toward trump and his efforts to avoid it. i think thats quite honest, too bad you didnt take the time to understand it.

    you dont think theres any chance this guy actually does make choices from his gross gut and he does actual live in an alternate reality where he knows more about any one thing than any other person. glad you are so confident in his descion making process, many grown adults see a child there, and are not so sure about his rationale. Meanwhile there are chirpings that this was presented as the most extreme and least desirable option: "Officials gave differing and incomplete accounts of the intelligence they said prompted Trump to act. Some said they were stunned by his decision, which could lead to war with one of America’s oldest adversaries in the Middle East."

    So skepticism toward the president given his track record seems obvious. not being skeptical of this man seems to me to ignore every natural inclination of the human brain to process the information provided. He lies, a lot, about anything at all, important or not, you'd have to turn off every warning signal the brain provides to simply trust him.
    Matt Zilliox

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    Post Re: Middle east.

    Yet more peaceful behavior by Iranian government officials this week:

    "...CBS News is reporting Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 was shot down by Iran.
    US intelligence picked-up signals of the radar being switched on.
    Satellite detected infrared blips of two missile launches, probably SA-15s, followed shortly by another infrared blip of an explosion..."
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Yet more peaceful behavior by Iranian government officials this week:

    "...CBS News is reporting Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 was shot down by Iran.
    US intelligence picked-up signals of the radar being switched on.
    Satellite detected infrared blips of two missile launches, probably SA-15s, followed shortly by another infrared blip of an explosion..."
    Tragic. More likely than not, the reporting is correct. I'm curious - what was the proximate cause of this tragedy? Hmm.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by HorsCat View Post
    "...I'm curious - what was the proximate cause of this tragedy?..."
    Iranian military shooting missiles at passenger jetliners taking-off from the nearby airport in Tehran.
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    No one condoned it, but no one bothered to criticize it here either, did they? I'll answer: NO.

    Obama kills hundreds of people= crickets. Trump kills 5 people=8 pages (so far) of predominatly negative rants and name calling.

    That's my point. And my example was under Obama's watch, don't drag Bush into it. Whataboutism from you? Or is there a different clever term for what you just did?

    So dismiss any comparison of the left's double standards claim whataboutism if you will, it's great way to dismiss the facts.

    He's done such a "bad job", he's going to run away with the election, impeachment BS or not.

    Please bear in mind this forum is not a representation of the Nation. If it were, Hillary would be the one ordering drone strikes, and this thread would not exist, as none here would bother to complain about it.

    Sorry for the Hillary-ism.
    i have been the part of organized protests, i have written extensively, i have appeared on Mideast newsprograms, and i have never been quiet about my outrage about American foreign policy in general and drone strikes in particular.

    While every drone strike has been egregious- this one is different as it murdered a leader of a charter member of the UN. This wasn't by any definition an "enemey combatant". This was a general and cabinet member of government that while by no means perfect- does hold elections, does in general represent the will of the majority of its population, and has never in its history invaded another country. Iran is not a perfect country by any means- but I guarantee you that everyone here would choose to be a citizen of Iran before you'd want to live in any of the gulf states, or Iraq, or Afghanistan.

    Listen- I've been there. The theocracy is apparent but so are democratic institutions. The mullahs have alot of power but so does the elected president and the national assembly.

    Corso- you replied to me and the very first thing I said was,

    "American Foreign policy isn't something mysterious. Generally it's been fairly predictable since the end of the second world war. Certainly- post 9/11 the policy has been far more interventionist especially in the mideast but culturally literate people have a pretty good idea of what's going on over there."



    so don't come on here making stuff up and implying a falsehood in order to prove a point that doesn't have anything to do with the falsehood. I don't know anyone who was gung ho about drone strikes and against interventionism in the Mideast- and no one here is saying anything to that effect.

    Our country murdered a legitimate leader of a foreign country. That's what happened. The consequences are going to be either a war I don't believe Trump has the stomach for- or the removal of the United States as an active player in this mess. Trump is already instructing folks to cut off all ties with Iranian opposition groups and talking about "deals". He's going to essentially turn Iraq over to Iran- leave Syria to Assad and his Russian and Iranian allies- and then claim victory.

    Iran knows this and it's probably why their retaliation was so measured. The entire country is now united in mourning- the entire Shia world is now against the United States- and this stupid murder is essentially damaging any goodwill the United States had with anyone over there- with the possible exception of the Israelis.

    It was not only immoral, counter to our national interests, but it was also incredibly stupid. At least previous drone strikes seemingly furthered the agenda of the United States. This one just isolates us and gives Iran global sympathy.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Iranian military shooting missiles at passenger jetliners taking-off from the nearby airport in Tehran.
    Nope. That was the direct cause. (And the Iranians probably weren't targeting the jetliners.)
     

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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Iranian military shooting missiles at passenger jetliners taking-off from the nearby airport in Tehran.
    no doubt it was a case of mistaken identity when the plane turned around for some reason. No doubt, the Iranians should have grounded civilian air traffic and perhaps the military assumed they did. This is very similar to when the United States mistakenly shot down an Iranian airliner after confusing it for an Iranian f-14 Tomcat on an intercept for our carrier group back in the early '90s.

    This is hugely tragic....but Trump should have thought about the possibilities of these kinds of mistakes and tragedies in an environment of war. The Iranians fucked up and killed a bunch of their own people probably because they believed they were under attack and probably believed civilian air traffic had been grounded. But we won't know until ICAO does an investigation or the Iranians release some info- which they may not in the interest of national security. We don't really know how accurate Iranian SAM radars are. There are some reports that Russia sold them cheaper export level stuff but other folks believe their SAMs are current levels of technology- or at least the equal to our Patriots.

    It makes no sense to me why air traffic control in Tehran approved that or any other flight for take off- but if it had an emergency and changed course without communicating that to ground control- it's possible that the military saw the aircraft as an attacking threat. in war when all you've got is a hammer everything looks like nail.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    i...He's going to essentially turn Iraq over to Iran- leave Syria to Assad and his Russian and Iranian allies- and then claim victory.

    Iran knows this and it's probably why their retaliation was so measured. The entire country is now united in mourning- the entire Shia world is now against the United States- and this stupid murder is essentially damaging any goodwill the United States had with anyone over there- with the possible exception of the Israelis.

    It was not only immoral, counter to our national interests, but it was also incredibly stupid. At least previous drone strikes seemingly furthered the agenda of the United States. This one just isolates us and gives Iran global sympathy.
    I don´t see Souleimani w/ the same eyes but I do see Iran as much more than conservative islamist theocracy. You have to give it to them a strong will and identity not to become a russian sattelite. They play their cards without bowing to anyone. It´s a sophisticated nation w/ many aspects of western education while keeping their cultural identity. They have women in charge of directing movies. They are not Afhganistan. The architect responsible for the new BMW factory restaurant was a brilliant iranian woman. Otoh they fed Hzbollah and there wasn´t any action from the militia without Souleimani approval. BUt it keeps coming crystal clear: the strike looks stupid from any point you analize it.
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    Default Re: Middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Yet more peaceful behavior by Iranian government officials this week:

    "...CBS News is reporting Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 was shot down by Iran.
    US intelligence picked-up signals of the radar being switched on.
    Satellite detected infrared blips of two missile launches, probably SA-15s, followed shortly by another infrared blip of an explosion..."
    Do you really think that downing - if the news reports are correct that it was an Iranian missile that shot down the commercial Ukrainian 737 - was intentional? Do you believe that Iran targeted a commercial plane from the Ukraine?

    Answer quickly please - yes or no?
    GO!

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