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Thread: Climate Strike September 20

  1. #241
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Yes, absolutely. Of course. ALL funding definitely comes with unseen, unwritten obligations on both sides. I’m not sure either side qualifies as ‘more neutral’ or immune the effects of funding decisions.
    I think we both agree that nobody is immune to the effects of "funding decisions" the the broadest sense. But to suggest some sort of equivalence between industry-funded science versus academic research in terms of financial/funding independence is reductio ad absurdum.

    As a biologist, I did research for both academic labs as well as for a large, very well known pharmaceutical company. The interest of the former primarily concerns itself with prestige - if the team I was on could demonstrate that neurotransmitter X has nothing to do with the phenomenon Y, in sharp contrast to current understanding that it does, that's a big deal that would be extremely of interest to editors of scientific journals. Such a study would garner a lot of attention as well as prestige for that lab.

    As an industry scientist, I worked for a company that made billions of dollars off the understanding that neurotransmitter X is a key player in phenomenon Y, and blocking the mechanism of action of that neurotransmitter is what our drug was all about. Don't get me wrong - we did some very, very good science, and there's amazing research that comes out of these labs. But a study that might, conceivably, cost the company millions to billions of dollars if the FDA were to take a closer look based on that particular study? No way that study would ever see the light of day (and, at this company, my research was their intellectual property).

    Currently, I'm in another field - clinical psychology. I cannot imagine the name I would make for myself if I demonstrated that the most widely used test of adult intelligence had terrible test-retest reliability, for instance. My institution would garner quite a bit of acclaim as well. I seriously do not think that, if I was working for Pearson (the publisher of this particular test), that such a study would ever see the light of day.

    The motives, motivations, and contingencies between industry science and academic/government science are completely different, and the former is much more vulnerable to bias based in financial/funding matters. And, again, there has been some amazing research to come out of industry labs, so even that is a gross generalization.

    So although there's an "obligation on both sides," to imply that the magnitude of the obligation is equivalent would be a gross mischaracterization of scientific inquiry.
    Last edited by monadnocky; 09-29-2019 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Edits
     

  2. #242
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Yes, absolutely. Of course. ALL funding definitely comes with unseen, unwritten obligations on both sides. Iím not sure either side qualifies as Ďmore neutralí or immune the effects of funding decisions.
    I think this is overstated to say it lightly.

    Academics and government scientists' payoff is largely reputational which might lead to advancement or tenure or some such thing. They don't work for corporations that have an obligation to show a profit every three months. They don't get paid hundreds of thousands per year; they don't get compensated at $500+ per hour for testifying.

    I've deposed hundreds of "experts" for industries, mostly the polluting types. In every case that I can recall, the industrial client got just the opinion they paid for regardless of how bogus ande unsupported. This is like the media engaging in "fair and balanced" reporting by regarding every opinion as equally valid even when comparing easily debunked junk science with expert opinions firmly grounded in verifable scientific methodolgy - indeed this is at the base of why so many Americans questioned the vailidity of climate change for over 30 years.
     

  3. #243
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    I was looking for data on how much the earth temperature has actually increased in the last hundred years and how much it’s predicted to increase in the next hundred. Surprisingly most face-to-face interactions with staunch believers of climate change yielded a “I don’t know”. I’m just curious how many folks here could tell me (without checking google)?

    Anyway, in my google search to find the numbers, I found this link speaking to past accuracy of past climate model predictions.

    I’m generally not a big proponent of posting links in these discussions, but I’ll post it anyway. Definitely not looking for a huge back and forth debate or similar, would just like to hear your thoughts.

    Thirty Years On, How Well Do Global Warming Predictions Stand Up? - WSJ
    It is common in human endeavors to be able to understand, via first principles alone, generally where a given system is headed under a particular set of circumstances and yet be horribly wrong about the schedule and small scale details.

    We live on a giant heat engine (our atmosphere, solar energy input, polar cold temp reservoirs, equatorial warm temp reservoirs and a couple of working fluids facilitating global heat transfer) for which small changes in temperature, particularly in the oceans, reflect enormous changes in thermal energy and therefore behavior. Our collective scientific knowledge is adequate for predicting the general tenor of the outcome. Ignoring all else, which would be ignoring more than a hell of a lot, when the cold temp reservoirs of our planet warm to the point of incipient phase change you can be certain that big trouble is brewing. Predicting the schedule is fraught with far more uncertainty and using those errors to impeach the validity of the larger system reaction predictions as the WSJ article appears to do (based on the leader) is, at best, unwise.
    John Clay
    Tallahassee, FL
    My Framebuilding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/sets

  4. #244
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

     

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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    Extinction Rebellion protesters use fire engine to spray Treasury with fake blood | UK News | Sky News

    When they built skate ramps on the bridges and closed those for a week, it was a cute stunt. This is a bridge too far.
     

  6. #246
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    You can say that again:

    It is common in human endeavors to be able to understand, via first principles alone, generally where a given system is headed under a particular set of circumstances and yet be horribly wrong about the schedule and small scale details.
     

  7. #247
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    Like the exchange between Bill Murray and Adam Driver in "The Dead Don't Die"?



    Chief Robertson: May I ask you a question?

    Officer Peterson: Sure, ask away.

    Chief Robertson: You have been saying that this is all going to end badly, from the very beginning, over and over. So what made you so fucking sure of that? How did you know everything in advance?

    Officer Peterson: Do you really want to know?

    Chief Robertson: Yes! I want to know! I really want to know!

    Officer Peterson: Okay. I know because I've read the script.
    Tee Aitch

    Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring. -- Desmond Tutu

  8. #248
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    Default Re: Climate Strike September 20

    Quote Originally Posted by King Of Dirk View Post
    I appreciate the consistency and your point of view. I hope that beer was/is delicious, and that we can share a round one day.
    Good morning! Just checking in here again. It was pretty good (Irish Death in a can) but let's plan to have something really good, preferably in an old Old World pub or after a good ride or both.
    Dan Fuller, local bicycle enthusiast

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