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Thread: 2020 Political Chatter

  1. #281
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by slwrnu View Post
    in the UK, and a lot of Europe, we have a separation of powers model, in which the state is split into three functions. The idea being that each of the three functions can keep an eye on the others. You guys do not have that. Mixing up the law, money and politics is tricky, although I have a soft spot for those who say the best form of government is a benign dictatorship. Respectfully submitted from abroad.
    Well, if we can get the Brits to forget about that misunderstanding back in '76,
    I think rejoining the Empire might be an option.

    God Save the Queen.

    And grading on a curve, Boris doesn't look so bad right now.

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Comparing your familys' situation with our current President simply does not hold water. Sorry.

    All the yelling and comparisons to Hitler are simply left leaning propaganda. It's a shame that people can't criticize him (and there is plenty) without going Defcon 5.

    By this time, people will either vote for him or not. So vote for him or not.
    Respectfully, your assessment is incorrect on several levels. My family's story was to provide an example of what happens when a nascent dictator is unchecked. I stand by my statement that Trump is working toward a dictatorship. His consolidation of power, with the willing support of a large segment of the US population, is stereotypical dictator. Forgetting past examples and willfully enabling Trump is a recipe for disaster.

    I am not left leaning, and in fact disagree with many tenets of the Democratic party. My father and wife were/are small business owners. I support smaller government and second amendment rights. I'm a registered Republican (at least for the next 8 weeks...) who has identified as a "classical" Republican since the age of eight. Sadly, the Republican party has morphed into something I no longer recognize. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan (whose statement was about the Democratic party), "I didn't leave the Republican party, the Republican party left me." I have criticized Trump's policies and will continue to do so. Note that nowhere in my posts have I advocated violence or illegal action. I have tried to raise awareness of his dictatorial leanings and encouraged people to vote the issues, not the hype.

    In several of your posts, you made references to people not knowing history. I respectfully suggest that you too brush up on your history. Dictatorships don't just appear out of thin air. They usually occur because a disaffected populous wants change and an individual or small group takes advantage of them to take power. The conditions that allowed Trump to take power were enabled by both Democrats and Republicans. Those underlying issues still need to be fixed. IMO Trump and his followers are on a path to make it much worse.

    Greg

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    I would also posit that using Federal military personal, including flying in border personnel from one area into an area they are not familiar with (a classic historical move by strong arm dictators...see China as an example), to « quell » demonstrations when there is a First Amendment and viewing the demonstrations as « battlefields », using weapons of dispersal that are illegal under international law in wartime against your own population is prima facie evidence of dictatorship. And please don’t say if the local authorities because I will only ask about « states’ rights ». This is not a time for false equivalencies.
    « If I knew what I was doing, I’d be doing it right now »

    -Jon Mandel

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott G. View Post
    Well, if we can get the Brits to forget about that misunderstanding back in '76,
    I think rejoining the Empire might be an option.

    God Save the Queen.

    And grading on a curve, Boris doesn't look so bad right now.
    I think the covid situation in UK is more dire than the US right now.

    Boris has a large problem in currently there is no Brexit deal. If you sit a no-deal Brexit on an already weakened economy, I think you get a real sh!tshow. Everyone is looking left at Covid, and the car is about to hit them from the right.

    I wanted to call Nick Ferrari on LBC this morning when they were bitching about people hoarding toilet paper because of COVID. I'm not hoarding for COVID, I'm hoarding for Brexit. (Actually, I just plan on leaving again to sit this one out in the US. And as a fall-back plan, I am filing an application to go to Japan if the election results are even worse than expected and JFK is on fire.)

  5. #285
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by gregl View Post
    In several of your posts, you made references to people not knowing history. I respectfully suggest that you too brush up on your history. Dictatorships don't just appear out of thin air. They usually occur because a disaffected populous wants change and an individual or small group takes advantage of them to take power. The conditions that allowed Trump to take power were enabled by both Democrats and Republicans. Those underlying issues still need to be fixed. IMO Trump and his followers are on a path to make it much worse.

    Greg
    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand where you're coming from.

    History: When was the last time the United States of America was controlled by a dictator? The answer is never.

    And you actually believe, in this day and age of our country, with our senate and congress and Supreme Court, Trump - (who many of you believe is an idiot) - is clever enough to become the first?

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    And you actually believe, in this day and age of our country, with our senate and congress and Supreme Court, Trump - (who many of you believe is an idiot) - is clever enough to become the first?
    I would add the Pentagon to the list.

  7. #287
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand where you're coming from.

    History: When was the last time the United States of America was controlled by a dictator? The answer is never.

    And you actually believe, in this day and age of our country, with our senate and congress and Supreme Court, Trump - (who many of you believe is an idiot) - is clever enough to become the first?
    It is exactly because of Congress and the Supreme Court that Trump has the possibility of becoming a dictator. That, and a very vocal, armed, and conspiratorial significant 35-45% of the populace's full support no matter what he does, and the recipe is complete.

    I am not a historian by any stretch of the imagination, but I've read all of the significant biographies of Hitler (I'm consuming Volker Ullrich's second half of his series, which was just released last month) and my wider literary interest has always been how the (arguably) most culturally advanced, liberal (small "l" liberal there) country in the world became what it was after the First World War. Granted, the institutions are different, but there is real similarity to how both men rose to power through those very institutional and governmental structures which were, ostensibly, designed to protect both countries from devolving into dictatorship. By the time Hitler really got rolling in the 1930's, he could destroy those very institutions with the full backing of the vast majority of the German population. At the end of the day, all that makes a republic maintain its cohesion is common agreement. Both Hitler and Trump care(d) not one whit about the common good, so those agreements don't mean anything to such men.

    I think that we jump immediately to "millions of people could never be murdered by the state in this day and age." But that's besides the point, I think. That particular end would be very unlikely to occur in 2020, in just about any modern state. But if we focus on how dictatorial regimes rise, yes, there is similarity (first and foremost of these is a sense of humiliation among the working class, followed closely by working class economic stagnation, followed by rapid change in technology, etc. etc. etc.)

    Those who fled Germany in the 1930's - which was very difficult to do by then (I'm most familiar with Freud's story, highlighted elsewhere by Jorn) - they all report the blinding speed at which the regime accelerated, as well as the widespread popular support such regimes garnered, picking up speed and momentum (and more support) along the way.

    There is no reason to think it cannot happen here. It can happen here, and when we see the beginnings of it, by the time we think of doing something about it, it's too late, and it's likely that we are on the bandwagon. Human nature does not change (or at least does not change, from an evolutionary perspective, over 75 years).

    And Hitler was not particularly smart. He had a gift of oratory (which to modern ears would appear like he was putting on an act, even comical, even to native German speakers) but none of his biographers considered him particularly intelligent. His mistakes during the war were breathtakingly stupid but none of his generals or lackeys had the spine to say anything, or were so on board with his cult of personality that they didn't think he could do any wrong.

    In terms of Hitler's enablers and political lackeys, that, for sure, reminds me of someone else...
    Last edited by monadnocky; 09-25-2020 at 10:38 AM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand where you're coming from.

    History: When was the last time the United States of America was controlled by a dictator? The answer is never.

    And you actually believe, in this day and age of our country, with our senate and congress and Supreme Court, Trump - (who many of you believe is an idiot) - is clever enough to become the first?
    My sincere thanks to you for this respectful dialog. To answer your question: yes, it is very possible that Trump can become the United States' first dictator. Remember, Rome went from a republic to an empire - and then declined to a historical footnote. A dictatorship is not one person. The dictator is the leader of the ruling cabal. Trump has willing allies in both the House and Senate. He is trying to pack the Supreme Court to provide additional support. Trump isn't an idiot. He simply doesn't care to "waste his time" on traditional, representative government. His focus is solely to amass power and consolidate it. That power will be used to reward his supporters and penalize his opponents. It's all about "winning."

    Greg

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Then compare President Obama to Hitler too, as the same treatment happened under him. But you most likely will refuse to believe that.

    Even so, if you feel the Hitler comparison is not an over-reach, you may need to brush up on history.
    The difference is of course that the Obama administration saw what was happening and course corrected, the Trump administration leaned in harder.

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by zachateseverything View Post
    The difference is of course that the Obama administration saw what was happening and course corrected, the Trump administration leaned in harder.
    The other difference is that President Obama was fighting against the momentum he inherited, trying to steer the ship away from the abyss. Lest we forget, he was handed a train-wreck of an economy, a decimated bill of rights, and a sprawling imperialist war apparatus. But all of that is beside the point. Your (Corso's) what-about-ism is a nauseating cop-out. It's what people turn to when they can't find any support for their own position.
    Dan in Oregon

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    The Left (and some former Republicans) are trying to preserve our democracy and are using what tools they can find to work constructively toward that end within the written and well-understood laws of this land.

    That is a wholly different end than what tRump, the alt-right/q-anon loons, and the complicit Republican party are aiming to do.
    Dan in Oregon

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand where you're coming from.

    History: When was the last time the United States of America was controlled by a dictator? The answer is never.

    And you actually believe, in this day and age of our country, with our senate and congress and Supreme Court, Trump - (who many of you believe is an idiot) - is clever enough to become the first?
    Yes, because that Senate and (if the administration gets their way) six Justices have shown a more than willing deference to kowtow to whatever the man in charge wants. And they're doing for their own political ends, and they think they can control what's happening from the White House, or it won't get that bad, but that's precisely what many around the Weimar Republic thought during the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Or for others that the systems in place will, at some magical point in time in the future, say enough is enough and stop the train that's now heading down the tracks.

    The below sound at all familiar?

    Prideful of their own higher learning and cultivation, the intellectual classes could not absorb the idea that, thanks to “invisible wire-pullers”—the self-interested groups and individuals who believed they could manipulate the charismatic maverick for their own gain—this uneducated “beer-hall agitator” had already amassed vast support. After all, Germany was a state where the law rested on a firm foundation, where a majority in parliament was opposed to Hitler, and where every citizen believed that “his liberty and equal rights were secured by the solemnly affirmed constitution.”
    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page...o-stefan-zweig

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    A would-be dictator would have jumped on the covid crisis to massively expand his powers in willing embrace of a terrified populous. What did Trump do? He ignored it at first, then did anything he could do to distance his administration's involvement in the crisis. Imagine Dick Cheney in his shoes?? Trump's interests lie in "winning", golf, burnt steak, and porn stars. He lacks the ambition and imperialistic obsessions of Hitler types. Don't mistake petulance and a complete non-understanding of his constitutional powers as a desire to be a dictator. His rhetoric may ring of that of a dictator, but it's mostly a ploy to appeal to his base. He is paranoid about losing not because he wants to be president, but because he can't stomach losing and he's mortified about being prosecuted once out of office.

  14. #294
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    I’m surprised Barr’s name isn’t coming up here.
    To me he is the biggest risk factor for us losing our democracy.
    He’s absolutely loyal to Trump, not to the people of this country and is willing to use the full force of the Justice Department to quash dissent.
    Trump is a monster, but completely incompetent.
    With Barr he has a willing accomplice who knows how to use the powers of government.

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Fox View Post
    A would-be dictator would have jumped on the covid crisis to massively expand his powers in willing embrace of a terrified populous. What did Trump do? He ignored it at first, then did anything he could do to distance his administration's involvement in the crisis. .
    After hearing his conversation with Woodward, I fear it was a cold calculation--the worst hit areas involved the deaths of tens of thousands in Democratic areas, ie not his "people"--he didn't win by much in 2016, so it is easy to see the appeal to him: fewer dems to vote is what he cares about

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Fox View Post
    A would-be dictator would have jumped on the covid crisis to massively expand his powers in willing embrace of a terrified populous. What did Trump do? He ignored it at first, then did anything he could do to distance his administration's involvement in the crisis. Imagine Dick Cheney in his shoes?? Trump's interests lie in "winning", golf, burnt steak, and porn stars. He lacks the ambition and imperialistic obsessions of Hitler types. Don't mistake petulance and a complete non-understanding of his constitutional powers as a desire to be a dictator. His rhetoric may ring of that of a dictator, but it's mostly a ploy to appeal to his base. He is paranoid about losing not because he wants to be president, but because he can't stomach losing and he's mortified about being prosecuted once out of office.
    Instead, he spent the summer drawing a clear line in the sand about domestic enemies, leveraging the social and racial justice protests to deploy federal agents who held people without cause, abducting them from the streets without any explanation for why they were being detained. And now he's frothing up his base which includes armed paramilitary groups to not accept an outcome of the election that is not a win from him, and refuses to say he will participate in a peaceful transfer of power if he loses. The man is openly telling everyone he's preparing for a coup if he doesn't like the outcome.

    Yeah, he's not Dick Cheney, but what he's doing goes far beyond what any other politician in that job has said publicly and still kept the job.

    People thought Hitler and Mussolini were morons too. Underestimating fascism is a huge mistake.

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Hi, my name is Too Tall. The time is 2:07 and it is still amateur hr. at the W.H.

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post

    People thought Hitler and Mussolini were morons too. Underestimating fascism is a huge mistake.
    I'm with this guy...this process isn't revolutionary...it's evolutionary. He is slowly establishing the conditions that will allow him to stake a claim to power that 40% of the country will support. When Republican leadership won't even name him when they assure there will be a peaceful transition of power, we have a problem. They are afraid to say his name for fear of political retribution...that is trouble brewing.
    Jason Babcock

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    To your point about evolutionary: there is a direct line from Nixon to Trump. He is the useful idiot of the moment, I'll agree, but the program has been working a long time toward this end.
    Jay Dwight

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by ides1056 View Post
    To your point about evolutionary: there is a direct line from Nixon to Trump. He is the useful idiot of the moment, I'll agree, but the program has been working a long time toward this end.
    Or Mitch McConnell vs. Senator Sam Ervin, one understood his duty, the other has never hear of the word.

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