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Thread: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    I suggest y'all quit wasting your time arguing here and volunteer to help register voters. That's probably the single most potentially fruitful activity you could get involved with at this point.
    John Clay
    Tallahassee, FL
    My Framebuilding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/sets

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Get rid of all the "illegals"! But please, wait until after the harvest.
     

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    We've been through this before on immigration and crime. I won't post all the articles and studies again, but illegal immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than native born Americans. .
    Yes, we have been through this before. Folks that illegally enter our country have committed a crime by doing so. That's 100% crime rate. What we've been through before, as you display above, are folks taking what is little more than opinion and and repeating it enough that is now becomes thought of as 'fact' by some.

    The vast overwhelming majority of crimes in our country are handled at the state/local level. Basically not much data is available from the state/local level related to immigration status of the perps committing the vast majority of the crime in our country. Even more so now that many law enforcement agencies are not allowed to even inquire on immigration status or cooperate with immigration enforcement.

    Since we don't have nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status, it's profoundly intellectually dishonest to present your opinion as factual.
     

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Since we don't have nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status, it's profoundly intellectually dishonest to present your opinion as factual.
    You have statewide stats. That should be enough to study nationwide trends.

    Criminal Immigrants in Texas: Illegal Immigrant Conviction and Arrest Rates for Homicide, Sex Crimes, Larceny, and Other Crimes | Cato Institute
    http://www.dps.texas.gov/administrat...alArstConv.pdf
    Last edited by sk_tle; 01-03-2020 at 11:05 AM.
    --
    T h o m a s

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Yes, we have been through this before. Folks that illegally enter our country have committed a crime by doing so. That's 100% crime rate. What we've been through before, as you display above, are folks taking what is little more than opinion and and repeating it enough that is now becomes thought of as 'fact' by some.

    The vast overwhelming majority of crimes in our country are handled at the state/local level. Basically not much data is available from the state/local level related to immigration status of the perps committing the vast majority of the crime in our country. Even more so now that many law enforcement agencies are not allowed to even inquire on immigration status or cooperate with immigration enforcement.

    Since we don't have nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status, it's profoundly intellectually dishonest to present your opinion as factual.
    Except Texas does have extensive data that shows immigrants don't commit crimes at higher rates than American citizens. And being an immigration heavy population and on the front lines of Trump's attack on immigration (it's not like he wants to build a wall at JFK or LaGuardia). And I'm responding to the BS about immigration restrictions being about saving american lives. American's aren't dying at the hands of immigrants any more than they are dying at the hands of fellow Americans. But, if you want to play the intellectually dishonest card, it's just as much so to make the claims that are made about immigrant perpetrated crimes. It's not founded in data or evidence. It's a dog whistle rally cry to get people amped up about stopping immigration.
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Folks that illegally enter our country have committed a crime by doing so. That's 100% crime rate.
    Technically not all "illegal aliens" enter the country illegally. So it is not a 100% crime rate.
    --
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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Yep, that's the study I've referenced in the past, along with a bunch of other research to suggest that it is a fair representative dataset.

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    Technically not all "illegal aliens" enter the country illegally. So it is not a 100% crime rate.
    True. Though if Trump gets his way and abolishes asylum, Tex may become more correct.

    What irks me about the immigration fear mongering is that I was born, raised, and have now spent over 30 years of my life living in one of (if not the most) immigrant dense cities in the US (over 50% of Miami is foreign born). I can confidently say that, on balance, the contributions outweigh the negatives by such a degree that it's absurd to me to hear people speak out against immigration. I have many, many complaints about this place, but the large amount of immigrants is not one of them.
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Yes, we have been through this before. Folks that illegally enter our country have committed a crime by doing so. That's 100% crime rate. What we've been through before, as you display above, are folks taking what is little more than opinion and and repeating it enough that is now becomes thought of as 'fact' by some.

    The vast overwhelming majority of crimes in our country are handled at the state/local level. Basically not much data is available from the state/local level related to immigration status of the perps committing the vast majority of the crime in our country. Even more so now that many law enforcement agencies are not allowed to even inquire on immigration status or cooperate with immigration enforcement.

    Since we don't have nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status, it's profoundly intellectually dishonest to present your opinion as factual.
    Any entering the country without the approval of an immigration officer is committing a misdemeanor. Does a misdemeanor warrant indefinite detention in a camp either in the US or Mexico, for adults or minors?

    One third to one half of all illegal immigration in this country is people overstaying student, tourist or work visas. "The wall" will do nothing to address that if that's the real concern.

    Our response to a humanitarian crisis at our own doorstep -- a country made nearly entirely of immigrants or descendants of immigrants, mind you -- and one in large part the result of our own policymaking in Central America is leading to an administration response of closing the door and not letting anyone in.

    I'll share one anecdote from someone close to me who's done work down in the camps at the border, kids specifically. One kid from Guatemala was there, 12 years old. Watched a gang rape and behead his mother in front of both him and his sister. He took what little they could, and he and his sister traveled the thousand or so miles to the US border with the slim hopes of getting to relatives who are here in the US. What kind of welcome did he get when he came here? He's crammed in a cage, separated from his sister -- the only immediate family he has left -- and kept for an indefinite period of time.

    Some welcome. All of our ancestors -- save for the Native Americans -- came from somewhere else. And they didn't come here because things were great and wonderful back home. They came here because they had nowhere else to go on the slim hope of building a better life for themselves. Any life of comfort and ease we experience today is the direct result of that vain hope from some people further up the family tree we've never even met. The least we owe the life of privilege we have today is extending a helping hand to those who are literally banging on the front door begging for shelter from whatever storm they escaped back home.

    But please, tell us more about "the illegals."
     

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Time to watch that famous documentary on immigration and government debt.

    Americathon - Wikipedia

    At some point the Native Americans are going to ask us all go back our home countries.
     

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Decent people who wish to enter a home phone ahead, ring the doorbell upon arrival, await the door to open, and enter when invited.
     

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post

    But please, tell us more about "the illegals."

    Anyone that wants to immigrate to our country must do so legally. Period.


    We can't take care of our own people. Homelessness is absolutely exploding and shows no sign of slowing down. If we can't take care of our own growing indigent population, why in the world would we invite indigent people from other countries to compete with our own homeless population for limited housing, medical services, work, and public support?
     

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Decent people who wish to enter a home phone ahead, ring the doorbell upon arrival, await the door to open, and enter when invited.
    So.. that´s how the west was won. I see..
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
    Decent people who wish to enter a home phone ahead, ring the doorbell upon arrival, await the door to open, and enter when invited.
    And when the law has been used as a cudgel to stymie, stifle and otherwise prohibit desperate people from coming to a nation of immigrants, I understand why desperate people take desperate measures. Also, let's be clear, denying asylum seekers access to the country is a violation of international law, many of the very international laws the US championed in the post-war period but now seem to have abandoned. Never mind that until 1882, there was no knocking on the door required. Just get off the boat and you're here. If anyone's ancestors here arrived pre-1882, they came to this country under a radically different system than the one we live under today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Anyone that wants to immigrate to our country must do so legally. Period.


    We can't take care of our own people. Homelessness is absolutely exploding and shows no sign of slowing down. If we can't take care of our own growing indigent population, why in the world would we invite indigent people from other countries to compete with our own homeless population for limited housing, medical services, work, and public support?
    Then you must support socialized healthcare, higher taxes on the wealthy, less defense spending and higher spending on education, infrastructure and social needs programs. If not, that's just a bad faith distraction argument.

    There's plenty of open space in this country, we've got the room.
     

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    "...So.. that´s how the west was won. I see..."
    Dang. So you are saying illegal immigrants are invaders?
    We should double our efforts to manage this menace.
     

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post

    Then you must support socialized healthcare, higher taxes on the wealthy, less defense spending and higher spending on education, infrastructure and social needs programs. If not, that's just a bad faith distraction argument.

    There's plenty of open space in this country, we've got the room.
    Your response is: let’em in they’ll probably be fine?Somebody else will probably take care of them?

    And when our failing social safety net completely fails, creating an even larger problem, will you be as cavalier & smug ? I have a strong hunch that you’re quite insulated from many of the horrors that your ‘policies’ would create.
     

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    So why is it when Matt says Obamas' decisions affected everyone (all parties) implying that Obama was the President of all, I point out that obviously Trumps' do too (all parties) equally impacted, I'm the one who catches flack?

    Was my POINT entirely missed or ignored in order to go after Trump again on policies?

    No one questions any of his "Obama President of all" in his long reply (when several could have been challenged), but I bring up 3 points and it becomes another debate?

    Can you folks see how this all works here?

    I'll refrain from anymore contributions to this thread until the actual impeachment moves forward.
     

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    So why is it when Matt says Obamas' decisions affected everyone (all parties) implying that Obama was the President of all, I point out that obviously Trumps' do too (all parties) equally impacted, I'm the one who catches flack?

    Was my POINT entirely missed or ignored in order to go after Trump again on policies?

    No one questions any of his "Obama President of all" in his long reply (when several could have been challenged), but I bring up 3 points and it becomes another debate?

    Can you folks see how this all works here?

    I'll refrain from anymore contributions to this thread until the actual impeachment moves forward.
    Your prison reform example was a good one, this would have bi partisan support. you brought it up once before as well, thanks for pointing out the bipartisan acheivement under trump, it can be donewhen it makes sense for everyone.
    The Improbable Success of a Criminal-Justice-Reform Bill Under Trump | The New Yorker

    the economy isnt trumps policy though, hes not hiring people, pass there. and im not sure theres a net gain currently happening in regards to immigration enforcement. most of the country is pretty pissed off about this issue right now.
    Donald Trump on Immigration: Pros, Cons, Impact
    "I get somewhat frustrated when I hear supporters of the bill call it transformational change, because it’s not. It’s progress. I think we have a long way to go, and a lot bigger reforms and investment of resources need to happen before we get to a transformation.”
    there there, pat on the shoulder, point earned, we see you, whatever.
    id like to know more about Trumps prison reforms and who it has helped. im going to go read about that now.
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas Tex View Post
    Your response is: let’em in they’ll probably be fine?Somebody else will probably take care of them?

    And when our failing social safety net completely fails, creating an even larger problem, will you be as cavalier & smug ? I have a strong hunch that you’re quite insulated from many of the horrors that your ‘policies’ would create.
    We did that for the first 150 years of this country's existence and it all worked out. The long-term research shows that immigrants over the long-run provide an enormous economic boon to the economy, especially their second and third generation descendants. I can relink those if you want some reading on the subject. The long and short of it is they'll end taking care of themselves, just like I imagine your ancestors did coming to this country.

    The only reason our social safety net is "failing" is a concerted effort from the right to starve social services and public programs through policy decisions, rhetoric that poisons the belief government serves any valid public good, and a continued demonizing of the poor.

    I'm not insulated from any policy "disasters" because I know these choices affect all of us, and all of us are judged collectively by how the richest country in the history of the planet treat the most vulnerable portion of the population. And that includes people who may not be citizens now but are coming here to achieve the American dream all the same. I also know that all of us, no matter our current station in life, aren't as far from asking for a helping hand as we might like to think and one day I might be a situation where I could use public aid.
     

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    Default Re: It's telling that there's no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by theflashunc View Post
    We did that for the first 150 years of this country's existence and it all worked out. The long-term research shows that immigrants over the long-run provide an enormous economic boon to the economy, especially their second and third generation descendants. I can relink those if you want some reading on the subject. The long and short of it is they'll end taking care of themselves, just like I imagine your ancestors did coming to this country.

    The only reason our social safety net is "failing" is a concerted effort from the right to starve social services and public programs through policy decisions, rhetoric that poisons the belief government serves any valid public good, and a continued demonizing of the poor.

    I'm not insulated from any policy "disasters" because I know these choices affect all of us, and all of us are judged collectively by how the richest country in the history of the planet treat the most vulnerable portion of the population. And that includes people who may not be citizens now but are coming here to achieve the American dream all the same. I also know that all of us, no matter our current station in life, aren't as far from asking for a helping hand as we might like to think and one day I might be a situation where I could use public aid.
    There is nearly a 100% chance that every person who has replied to this thread has used public aid in one form or another, and will do so again, today, and tomorrow. And they will enjoy this public aid more than if it were private, because they can afford it, and because its nice to know that there is a recprical relationship between people who are living a decent life, and the country they live in.

    Public aid has become villianized by a certain subset of folks, but why? is it not the ultimate measure of ones wealth that they can afford to share it with those who helped them create it? and this country is ever so wealthy.
    Do we not love stories where people pull themsleves out of a poor situation created by society and their parents choices with the aid of maybe some college scholarships and hard work, and some assistance fomr the community, and now this person is a lawyer, or Jenny from the block, or a teacher, or whatever you want to choose.

    thats our story right? why are we trying to change it now to suit a smaller group?
    Matt Zilliox

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    Default Re: It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    So why is it when Matt says Obamas' decisions affected everyone (all parties) implying that Obama was the President of all, I point out that obviously Trumps' do too (all parties) equally impacted, I'm the one who catches flack?

    Was my POINT entirely missed or ignored in order to go after Trump again on policies?

    No one questions any of his "Obama President of all" in his long reply (when several could have been challenged), but I bring up 3 points and it becomes another debate?

    Can you folks see how this all works here?

    I'll refrain from anymore contributions to this thread until the actual impeachment moves forward.
    I was just calling out that one of your three points was rooted in fear mongering falsehoods and the implication that policies limiting lawful and unlawful immigration don't actually help all Americans the way you stated.

    I'm also not of the camp that cares whether or not Trump purports himself as the president of his side or all sides. Every president who signs new laws, which is all of them, does so with the understanding that the policies they are enacting as law apply to every resident of the US. I think what people are honing in on is that no president in recent memory has so vocally called the other side the enemy and sought division, not unification.

    To your other points that I didn't touch on above, unemployment and prison reform, those are both presumably good things. Like any policy, the devil is in the details. Underemployment isn't represented in the unemployment/jobs data and it's a real issue. The results that Trump loves to tout are continuations of trends that preceded him, but kudos to him for not sending the economy off the rails. There's also plenty of analysis that shows that the picture isn't all rosy, whether it's the disproportionate benefit of the tax law for the very rich (not to mention that we can't afford it) vs. the masses or the manipulation of interest rates or farm bailouts due to trade wars...but my investment portfolio hasn't imploded so there's that. Prison reform was good, at least from what I've read. I'm not that well versed on it, though, as I only have a handful of friends in prison so I don't study it that closely.

    As for impeachment, none of the above matters. Trump was impeached because of his actions; if Obama did the same, I'd want him impeached as well.
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids

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