Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 215

Thread: Strong Frames

  1. #141
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    annapolis md
    Posts
    546
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl S View Post
    Exactly! I just figured I wouldn't be a buzz kill and get into that.
    buzz killed. Can I send you a white Hanes, a marker and 20 bucks?

    I'm going to go ask worse questions in Steve's thread now

    About how old is your average customer? Has your typical customer gotten younger or older over the years or has it changed much? I assume the custom frame market is front-loaded by a generation that grew up with steel, but I also know little about "your" world.
     

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheEllipse View Post
    buzz killed. Can I send you a white Hanes, a marker and 20 bucks?

    I'm going to go ask worse questions in Steve's thread now

    About how old is your average customer? Has your typical customer gotten younger or older over the years or has it changed much? I assume the custom frame market is front-loaded by a generation that grew up with steel, but I also know little about "your" world.
    I'd guess that the most highly represented age range for my customers is 45-55 for road bikes, for MTB's it's younger. I'd say over the years it hasn't changed much. I think the reason is that it takes a certain level of sophistication to understand the value of the custom frame, especially steel, that sophistication comes with age. You also need to be in a place in life that you can afford the purchase.
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Tulsa, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    2,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    What do you check when you have a frame on the alignment table, and what are your tolerances?
    Eric Doswell, aka Edoz
    Summoner of Crickets
    http://edozbicycles.wordpress.com/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/edozbicycles/
    In Before the Lock

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    478
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl S View Post
    I'd guess that the most highly represented age range for my customers is 45-55 for road bikes, for MTB's it's younger. I'd say over the years it hasn't changed much. I think the reason is that it takes a certain level of sophistication to understand the value of the custom frame, especially steel, that sophistication comes with age. You also need to be in a place in life that you can afford the purchase.
    Over time, cyclists realize that cycling performance is really all about ergonomics. That realization does not come right away. It is not really about whiz bang materials, it's all about fit. That is why, I believe, cyclist tend to hit up the framebuilders later in the game.

    Even if you have a $10,000 carbon wonder, that bike WAS NOT MADE FOR YOU! Having a craftsperson make something specifically FOR YOU, is a very exciting and at once intensely human and personal experience, that is hard to quantify.

    The person who is going to make your bike FOR YOU, cares about YOU personally. They want to see YOU have something very very good. This is a very rare occurrence in our manufacturing based, mass produced society. Whether it is custom suits to custom yachts, this very personal and human experience, seems to remain at the top of the purchasing hierarchy in our society.
     

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by edoz View Post
    What do you check when you have a frame on the alignment table, and what are your tolerances?
    Hi Edoz, when I do the final alignment check I put the frame on the plate and I use a centerline reference for most elements. I hold the frame by the BB and I measure the whole thing without moving it. I measure HT twist and offset. I make sure the Seatube and dropouts are centered on the same plane as the headtube. I also check that the stays are equal distance from the centerline and perpendicular to the plate.
    I try to keep the key measurements within about five thousands over the length of the frame although at that tolerance anyones readings will change if the sun comes out, the frame is moved, I sneeze on it etc, etc. So I use the results more as a validation of my process rather than a valuation of my results.

    I'd also like to add that as I'm building the frame I continually check it on the plate to assure that it is behaving as expected. I try to avoid most if not all cold-setting and use welding sequence to control it's distortion. As I progress through the building process I can predict what it will do and if I stay on top of it, at the end I'll just be reading the alignment and won't have to make any adjustments.
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

  6. #146
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Better to be ruined than to be silent atmo.
    Posts
    18,453
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl S View Post
    So I use the results more as a validation of my process rather than a valuation of my results.


    that is fucking brilliant atmo.
    props to carlstrong.

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sutton, MA USA
    Posts
    4,454
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Yeah, that was one of most refreshing posts to read in a long time. It's nice to read the reality of the situation regarding alignment.
    Mike Zanconato
    Web
    | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | Flickr | Tumblr

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Tulsa, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    2,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Thanks, Carl. I think it's great how you can concentrate on being ultra efficient and still be able to sweat things that the rider won't notice.
    Eric Doswell, aka Edoz
    Summoner of Crickets
    http://edozbicycles.wordpress.com/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/edozbicycles/
    In Before the Lock

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    worlds biggest island
    Posts
    1,532
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Hi Carl, When you sequentially weld to keep alignment,what sort of pull are we talking about? On the same subject, how many tacks would you typically use? I,m assuming you may have a slightly different approach between butted and straight guage,steel and titanium.
     

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by progetto View Post
    Hi Carl, When you sequentially weld to keep alignment,what sort of pull are we talking about? On the same subject, how many tacks would you typically use? I,m assuming you may have a slightly different approach between butted and straight guage,steel and titanium.
    I use the same sequence for all material. The amount, direction and location of pull is different for everyone but when you weld around the BB you can see the headtube move about 0.040" as you weld from one side of the BB to the other. At the headtube I usually get somewhere around 0.010" of twist so I start by putting in the twist (my fixture is set up to produce it) and once I'm done welding the twist will be gone. Keep in mind that these are rough measurements taken from the tube so they only indicate the frames movement, not it's actual final alignment. I never take a final reading off a tube.

    When I tack a frame I use three tacks per tube. One at 10:00, one at 2:00 and one at 6:00. I tack with 0.025" wire and make the tack as small as I can. I prefer to use wire rather than fuse because it allows me to manipulate the frame while it's tacked without it falling apart.
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,653
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    that is fucking brilliant atmo.
    props to carlstrong.
    I'm pretty sure Loretta wrote that part.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


  12. #152
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Better to be ruined than to be silent atmo.
    Posts
    18,453
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Quote Originally Posted by Archibald View Post
    I'm pretty sure Loretta wrote that part.
    he uses a SuperMistress atmo.

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,568
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Carl,

    Great thread, love your bikes and ethic.

    Back a few pages there was a question or two about the customer and managing customer priorities and I expect to some extent expectations. I'm wondering how often a customer has such high expectations for their new custom bike that there are only two possible results: (1) pure happiness or (2) severe dissapointment. If the latter, what type of discussion happens and is there a resolution path that makes sense?

    By anecdote, I had a friend (now deceased) that had JP build him a bike to replace a beloved Redcay. He was very dissapointed with the new bike. So much so that he wouldn't ride it. I ended up with it (essentially he gave it to me as I was a poor college kid) and it was a fantastic riding bike frame. Peter built him a second frame (I don't know the arrangement if any) and he loved the second bike and rode it happily until he passed.

    I would think dealing with the dissapointed customer is very difficult due to the potential emotional attachment on both sides. Further, the potential for damage to the brand image in the internet era is large. So curious how the custom framebuilder deals with that type of customer interaction if it happens.

    --Mark
     

  14. #154
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Flagstaff, Arizona
    Posts
    9,208
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    you nailed the alignment post. thanks! - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  15. #155
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,607
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Hi Carl,

    I'm fascinated, impressed, and encouraged by your alignment methodology and especially by your commitment to extremely tight tolerances...it's heartening to encounter a craftsman dedicated to Making It As Good As Possible, rather than Just Good Enough.

    Does the inclusion of S&S couplers on a frame impact those alignment tolerances? I.e., is it possible to achieve the same degree of precise straightness (is that a word?) on a frame with couplers?

    (For that matter, when you build a frame with couplers at what point in the process do they get installed? before the tubes get welded, or as an "after-market" (sic) option once the frame's already been assembled/aligned?)

    Thanks.
     

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Hi Mark, managing customer expectations is definitely a big part of insuring satisfaction. And part of that is taking on customers that fit what you do. We all have a niche in which we really excel and outside that niche we are not alway as good as another builder. It has taken me a long time but I've learned how to say no to customers wanting something outside of my core specialties and it has saved me a lot of grief and money. But no matter how hard you try, you will from time to time disappoint a customer. In some cases it may be that the customer isn't being reasonable and in other cases it may be because I screwed up. In either case I rely on my relationship with the customer to resolve the issue. As long as I keep an open mind and don't get defensive and the customer is reasonable we can almost alway come to a resolution that make us both happy. In the rare case that the customer is unreasonable or frustrated beyond repair I give a full refund for their money. One thing I'd advise any business person is that it's much easier to gladly hand over a refund than it is to have a big confrontation, make the customer mad and then ultimately give the refund anyway. Another thing I have done in the past is fire customers before I even had a chance to disappoint them because I could see that they weren't going to be satisfied no matter what I did. In those cases, I find it easier to give them their money before I do a bunch of work rather than after.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    Carl,

    Great thread, love your bikes and ethic.

    Back a few pages there was a question or two about the customer and managing customer priorities and I expect to some extent expectations. I'm wondering how often a customer has such high expectations for their new custom bike that there are only two possible results: (1) pure happiness or (2) severe dissapointment. If the latter, what type of discussion happens and is there a resolution path that makes sense?

    By anecdote, I had a friend (now deceased) that had JP build him a bike to replace a beloved Redcay. He was very dissapointed with the new bike. So much so that he wouldn't ride it. I ended up with it (essentially he gave it to me as I was a poor college kid) and it was a fantastic riding bike frame. Peter built him a second frame (I don't know the arrangement if any) and he loved the second bike and rode it happily until he passed.

    I would think dealing with the dissapointed customer is very difficult due to the potential emotional attachment on both sides. Further, the potential for damage to the brand image in the internet era is large. So curious how the custom framebuilder deals with that type of customer interaction if it happens.

    --Mark
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Thanks Steve!
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

  18. #158
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bozeman MT
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Hi Bob, I put the coupler in before I weld the frame. Alignment is the same with or without them. Like I said I try not to cold set, so as long as I do everything like I normally do, things should turn out right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
    Hi Carl,

    I'm fascinated, impressed, and encouraged by your alignment methodology and especially by your commitment to extremely tight tolerances...it's heartening to encounter a craftsman dedicated to Making It As Good As Possible, rather than Just Good Enough.

    Does the inclusion of S&S couplers on a frame impact those alignment tolerances? I.e., is it possible to achieve the same degree of precise straightness (is that a word?) on a frame with couplers?

    (For that matter, when you build a frame with couplers at what point in the process do they get installed? before the tubes get welded, or as an "after-market" (sic) option once the frame's already been assembled/aligned?)

    Thanks.
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Hi Carl,

    I read on Anthony Maietta's blog about the advanced welding tutelage you provided during his visit to your shop. Outstanding of you to do that!
     

  20. #160
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Quaix en Chartreuse, France
    Posts
    55
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Strong Frames

    Hi Carl.

    I've just read this thread and the one from Dave. Thanks for sharing so much !

    Is there any recording of your framebuilding business seminar available somewhere ?

    Thanks !
    Francois

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •