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Thread: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott G. View Post
    Which is why my All-Rounder parts kit, is about to move to it's 3rd frameset.
    Since I can't build frames, I just keep buying them, till I get to the one
    where the poly-turbo encabulator doesn't precess.

    That´s why i trust (so called) "italian stage race geometry". It works. A longer cs to acommodate a fatter tire and it´s done.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    Get rid of it and buy something non custom.
    bingo
     

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    Get rid of it and buy something non custom.
    terribly interesting thread but this sentiment really should be the beginning & end of it, now shouldn't it

    bicycles are the only potentially-customized thing in the world considered to be so adaptable. fair enough, off-the-rack clothes can be tailored to you too, as can most off-the-rack bikes.

    but these facts remain:
    - steel is more resistant to hemming than pants
    - there would be no reason to have a custom bicycle made if handling was not also taken into account
    - you must be lucky enough to have the same distribution of mass, proportions, and ideas about handling as the commissioner if you intend to be happy with someone else's custom bicycle
    some may ask: why rock out now?
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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by megapope View Post
    terribly interesting thread but this sentiment really should be the beginning & end of it, now shouldn't it

    bicycles are the only potentially-customized thing in the world considered to be so adaptable. fair enough, off-the-rack clothes can be tailored to you too, as can most off-the-rack bikes.

    but these facts remain:
    - steel is more resistant to hemming than pants
    - there would be no reason to have a custom bicycle made if handling was not also taken into account
    - you must be lucky enough to have the same distribution of mass, proportions, and ideas about handling as the commissioner if you intend to be happy with someone else's custom bicycle
    Well, really the same applies to off the rack frames. I've had plenty where I thought there was no way the designer actually rode the thing in the conditions it was presumably designed for. Properly designed bikes will have a pretty wide range of riders that they will pair well with, custom or otherwise. Sometimes on the edges of that range, where maybe a bike was designed to handle a very specific way or a rider has a very specific preference, things don't work out. That seems to be the case here with the OP. It sounds like the bike was designed a certain way for a specific type of handling that happens to be outside the range of what Jason likes or his intended use of the bike. That doesn't mean handling wasn't taken into account for the original design or that it doesn't work because of Jason's proportions or distribution of mass.

    The best advice of the thread was from Gaulzetti/jerk. Jason has had Gaulzettis in the past. Jason has liked his Gaulzettis in the past. Jason should get the demo bike from Gaulzetti.
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    all true, and there is less diversity in the way frames are constructed even in the case of customs than there appears to be. one must trust to some degree that whoever's on the other end has at least a similar idea of what makes a good bike

    to speak from recent personal and wholly anecdotal experience on the matter of height, i doubt i will own another bicycle designed by a shorter person again. call it the randy newman approach. new BMC monstercross is the best road + loose-terrain bike i've ever owned and i don't believe it's a coincidence that mike varley and i happen to be the same height and frame size. that's not to say that short people cannot design tall frames properly, it's just that a tall person designing a bike for his own use will have more insight into what makes a bike handle well at that end of the bell curve. if i were even taller or shorter i would order from lennard zinn or georgena terry for the same reasons

    gaulzetti... one thinks of a sort of french-italian partnership
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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by megapope View Post
    all true, and there is less diversity in the way frames are constructed even in the case of customs than there appears to be. one must trust to some degree that whoever's on the other end has at least a similar idea of what makes a good bike

    to speak from recent personal and wholly anecdotal experience on the matter of height, i doubt i will own another bicycle designed by a shorter person again. call it the randy newman approach. new BMC monstercross is the best road + loose-terrain bike i've ever owned and i don't believe it's a coincidence that mike varley and i happen to be the same height and frame size. that's not to say that short people cannot design tall frames properly, it's just that a tall person designing a bike for his own use will have more insight into what makes a bike handle well at that end of the bell curve. if i were even taller or shorter i would order from lennard zinn or georgena terry for the same reasons

    gaulzetti... one thinks of a sort of french-italian partnership
    I have a slightly different take on this.
    Not doubting your own recent personal and wholly anecdotal experience but I, and many people I know that are tall, have had very positive experiences.
    An experienced builder understands the needs of their customers and delivers a great product regardless of the builder's personal dimensions.
    On the flip side, less than ideal products are made by all heights and weights of builders.
    It has nothing to do with how tall (or heavy) the builder/designer happens to be.

    I am 6'3". While not super tall, taller than average. I have never had a bike built by someone my height. Have never had a poor bike made for me. All bikes have been made by experienced builders.
    I am not alone in this experience.

    Builders that couldn't build for people that were not their own same height (or weight) would have a lot of unhappy customers.
    Brian McLaughlin

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Every space mission relies on hardware designed and built by people who were not astronauts.

    Most cardiologists have never has a heart attack. Ditto with brain surgeons and brain tumors.
    Last edited by thollandpe; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:14 PM.
    Tee Aitch

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by thollandpe View Post
    Every space mission relies on hardware designed and built by people who were not astronauts.

    Most cardiologists have never has a heart attack. Ditto with brain surgeons and brain tumors.
    Those are some extreme examples. Next you will say Beethoven was deaf when he composed the 9th symphony.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    for sure. a skilled builder can build for anyone, i would just tend to trust people nearer my height a bit more than not. if i knew anyone near my height who ordered and recommended a certain framebuilder my first question wouldn't be "how tall are they?," that's for sure

    more personal experience: i don't believe just anyone in the market knows how to make a really good bike for tall people. of the similar bikes i've owned i've found that rivendell overestimates how much chainstays need to scale up for a tall rider and surly makes their crosscheck frames a good bit stiffer than is really needed. all companies have many excellent, devoted tall owners but i don't believe many have a good idea of how to nail exactly the right handling and flex characteristics up above 58cm

    anyhow we're well off-topic now. do you think that the original commissioner's reasons for ordering a custom are relevant in whether or not someone else should own it? i think so. if it's a custom based on someone's unique ideas about handling then i wouldn't buy it except as a curiosity, if it's just a normal bike made in an exceptional size, with exceptional lugwork, or with a desirable mix of accessory mounts then i don't see why you wouldn't. they don't exactly put that info right on the bike but maybe they should
    some may ask: why rock out now?
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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by colker View Post
    Those are some extreme examples. Next you will say Beethoven was deaf when he composed the 9th symphony.
    He was only deaf in one ear. He simply couldn't hear anything with the other one.
     

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by megapope View Post
    for sure. a skilled builder can build for anyone, i would just tend to trust people nearer my height a bit more than not. if i knew anyone near my height who ordered and recommended a certain framebuilder my first question wouldn't be "how tall are they?," that's for sure

    more personal experience: i don't believe just anyone in the market knows how to make a really good bike for tall people. of the similar bikes i've owned i've found that rivendell overestimates how much chainstays need to scale up for a tall rider and surly makes their crosscheck frames a good bit stiffer than is really needed. all companies have many excellent, devoted tall owners but i don't believe many have a good idea of how to nail exactly the right handling and flex characteristics up above 58cm

    anyhow we're well off-topic now. do you think that the original commissioner's reasons for ordering a custom are relevant in whether or not someone else should own it? i think so. if it's a custom based on someone's unique ideas about handling then i wouldn't buy it except as a curiosity, if it's just a normal bike made in an exceptional size, with exceptional lugwork, or with a desirable mix of accessory mounts then i don't see why you wouldn't. they don't exactly put that info right on the bike but maybe they should
    Ernesto Colnago is a short guy.
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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    I won't venture into the arguments over whether an off-the-rack frame can be adjusted to provide an appropriate fit, or whether a custom bike is the better option, but to the extent that the OP was considering Craig at SummerCycles, I can provide some insight, as I just had a fitting there that, at least for me, was eye-opening.

    By way of background, I was fitted for a Seven Axiom many years ago (20+ years) by a well-respected fitter in the Bay Area, but at that time I hadn't ridden a lot, so I think that the fitting was to provide a pretty relaxed (upright) position, with almost full leg extension and KOPS measurement. That worked fairly well, but over time, I've ridden more, and better and faster. Despite the accumulated years, I've also maintained decent flexibility through regular Pilates and stretching. As a result, I moved my bars a bit lower and had a slightly longer profile on the bike. I moved from the bar tops to spending more time on the hoods and drops.

    When I saw Craig, he evaluated my position, first interviewing me (how I arrived at my current position, how I ride, any physical limitations, any pain while riding, etc), then taking measurements off my existing bike, and then putting me on the fit bike, which is attached to a trainer and power meter. Everything is adjustable on the fit bike as you pedal, and the trainer shows L/R power. After making multiple adjustments while I pedaled against resistance, Craig arrived at a number of adjustments. He both lowered me slightly and rotated me forward slightly on the bike, and also adjusted the fore/aft saddle position as well. I need a longer and somewhat lower stem.

    During the testing, he could both observe my pedaling and see how I was producing power from his computer screen.

    The interesting point is that my dominant (right side) was producing substantially more power (asymmetrically than my left) in my old position, but that the power evened out in the new position. This correlated to what I've always experienced in the gym, which is that my right leg (especially glutes) are much stronger in separate but identical leg exercises. While riding on the fit bike, I could actually feel the difference as my left glute became engaged by the different position. The change in position evened out my power and better engaged my left side.

    Aside from my favorable impression of Craig as a fitter, my other takeaway is that the combination of a fit bike with power diagnostics attached is a real leap forward in terms of fit evaluation. This is not to say that Craig or another experienced fitter couldn't have arrived at the same conclusion from observation of many cyclists during fittings, and then comparing them to me, or perhaps just looking at the mechanics of my pedal stroke. However, the power analysis seems like really helpful empirical support for the changes being considered.

    To the OP: if you are on the fence, I'd at least stop by Summer. I was really impressed. It seemed like a really thoughtful analysis of my fit.

    Good luck,

    Greg
     

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    I'm not sure if I only owned great bikes, if I am very adaptative or if other people love to invent themselves issues that do not exist but I never rode a bicycle that handled badly except that only one city sharing bike whose frame was bent. But the front and rear wheel had camber in opposite direction so it could have never handled well.

    But then I don't look at the geo chart before hoping on a bicycle either. I just make sure the saddle and handlebars are where I want them to be.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:42 AM.
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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    I'm not sure if I only owned great bikes, if I am very adaptative or if other people love to invent themselves issues that do not exist but I never rode a bicycle that handled badly except that only one city sharing bike whose frame was bent. But the front and rear wheel had camber in opposite direction so it could have never handled well.

    But then I don't look at the geo chart before hoping on a bicycle either. I just make sure the saddle and handlebars are where I want them to be.
    that's because you don't buy bikes that were designed by people who were either trying to re-invent the wheel or address problems that don't really exist i bet.

    listen to the op and the guy asking about how i know where to put the front wheel (and i assume the rear wheel too)- there's no secret here. i don't need to be a midget to know how a 51cm bike i make is going to ride. the bikes that are wrong are the bikes that don't recognize that there is fundamentally a very narrow range of appropriate wheelbase measurements for a road bike. maybe it will make it easier to understand if i put it this way: you don't make massive changes to chainstay length on a road bike based on how big or small the rider is do you? no. because there's an appropriate 15-25mm range of chainstay lengths that actually work on road bikes. think of front center the same way and you won't be far off the mark. use the head angle to get that wheel and the rider where you need them- again there's a range of head angles that work and a range of stem lengths that work and the top tube length will figure itself out based on the frame's setback measurement which is determining the other part of where you're putting the rider.

    to use a cruel analogy- many of you guys (not Thomas- sorry i wound up quoting you here) are just throwing a bunch of darts at a dart board when you don't even know how to count yet you're looking at bike designs and using things that are sometimes resultants of proper bike design and confusing them as drivers. with bikes we're stuck with the parts we're stuck with in the sizes they come in. you've got to work with these givens as best you can. people come in lots of sizes- 700x23 tubular tires and the wheels they go on don't.
    bamboo, aluminum, wood.

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by megapope View Post
    for sure. a skilled builder can build for anyone, i would just tend to trust people nearer my height a bit more than not. if i knew anyone near my height who ordered and recommended a certain framebuilder my first question wouldn't be "how tall are they?," that's for sure

    more personal experience: i don't believe just anyone in the market knows how to make a really good bike for tall people. of the similar bikes i've owned i've found that rivendell overestimates how much chainstays need to scale up for a tall rider and surly makes their crosscheck frames a good bit stiffer than is really needed. all companies have many excellent, devoted tall owners but i don't believe many have a good idea of how to nail exactly the right handling and flex characteristics up above 58cm

    anyhow we're well off-topic now. do you think that the original commissioner's reasons for ordering a custom are relevant in whether or not someone else should own it? i think so. if it's a custom based on someone's unique ideas about handling then i wouldn't buy it except as a curiosity, if it's just a normal bike made in an exceptional size, with exceptional lugwork, or with a desirable mix of accessory mounts then i don't see why you wouldn't. they don't exactly put that info right on the bike but maybe they should
    i don't think this is true at all. at least for me- the reason my bikes ride the way they do has very little to do with anything i have discovered or invented or had the angel gabriel whisper in my ear while riding a bike. none of us who are competent at designing bikes are competent at it because we've mastered building bikes for ourselves. for me- it's because i'm aware of road bike geometry for bikes with 700c wheels and drop bars. the sport of competitive cycling has produced modern race bike geometry and it works better than anything else for that type of riding....it's the most efficient, comfortable, and fastest type of bike geometry for riding several hours at varying spirited tempos over varied paved and unimproved road surfaces for human beings of with a moderate to excellent level of fitness. that work i already done. it evolves and changes slightly as style, road conditions, the materials from which bikes are made, amd the sport itself evolves and changes- but no one who who is making competent race bikes is approaching any client's custom frame design with a blank piece of paper or basing the design solely on what works for a person with those proportions. it'd be far more reasonable to say that unless you're a field sprinter you can't design a bike for field sprinters or unless you're a great climber you can't build a bike for a climber. certainly my preferences for how i like a bike to feel and drive plays a part in what makes a gaulzetti a gaulzetti- but far more important is the fact that i know what a road bike is. there are rules that you've got to follow or else the thing doesn't work.....or maybe it works but only in the one size you were lucky enough to randomly get right.

    regarding custom- for me- custom is not for people who don't fit on stock bikes. while those folks are certainly out there and certainly ought to be able to get bikes that work for them- i'd have sold four bikes in my entire life if custom was solely or even mostly for folks who could not have their requirements met by what was already available. that being said- i started putting my name on down tubes because no one was making the bike i wanted to ride. those are two very different drivers for custom bikes. the advantage of a custom bike is that there isn't any compromise or at least not as many compromises for the rider. it doesn't matter if it's compromising on the color they want or how they want the bike to behave descending the poggio the ultimate time....an ability to address compromises in what is otherwise on offer is what a frame builder offers the cyclist today i think.

    i hope that there are really good bikes available for tall people.....i'm certainly not here to build really good bikes for tall people- i think i'm here to build a fucking awesome bike for a woman who happens to have an 86cm saddle height and is looking for a bike that feels a little bit more grounded over unimproved roads- or an amazing bike for the guy who is coming off a 62cm Cervelo and is looking for something that'll let him corner a little bit harder when he's out hammering with his buddies- or for the gal who has an 82cm saddle height but wishes her bike was a bit more reactive and felt less dead while climbing out of the saddle.

    anyway- sorry for the ramble
    bamboo, aluminum, wood.

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    As a tall person you are right. What I want isn’t what everyone wants. The discussion for most of my bikes is make it as stiff as possible. My 3h sit down with d Kirk was figuring if he could make the tubes and angles I wanted work and with lugs. After that we talked bikes in general.

    Road bike I look at the geo chart and can say yes or no pretty easy. Even so, as someone who rides an 86 saddle height with 18cm of drop there are several production bikes I can make work. My biggest issue is often setback, but you can offset that with 180mm cranks

    Road bikes are pretty figured out. Mountain bikes are still kinda in flux. I have an xxl Santa Cruz Hightower coming to ride alongside my custom hard tail for the summer, and will hopefully have a better understanding. Sam at naked has some really interesting ideas regarding progressive mtb design, but I think he’s still keeping a few secret sauce measurements close to the chest
     

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    I had an early 80s Trek road bike that I didn't much like the handling of,
    always felt tippy, then one night I hit a nice deep pot hole. I stayed upright
    and finished the ride. A couple weeks later I noticed the d/t was bent at the head
    tube steepening the head angle quite a bit , bike still handled poorly.
    Now I had a sufficient reason to bin the thing, so I was pleased.
     

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    i hope that there are really good bikes available for tall people.....i'm certainly not here to build really good bikes for tall people- i think i'm here to build a fucking awesome bike for a woman who happens to have an 86cm saddle height and is looking for a bike that feels a little bit more grounded over unimproved roads- or an amazing bike for the guy who is coming off a 62cm Cervelo and is looking for something that'll let him corner a little bit harder when he's out hammering with his buddies- or for the gal who has an 82cm saddle height but wishes her bike was a bit more reactive and felt less dead while climbing out of the saddle.

    anyway- sorry for the ramble
    Well, I am reading this sitting in my CA living room and starring at my Aerotack, my Seven Evergreen Pro, My Seven Sola XX and my Spectrum. I guess 3 of these were designed and sold by you. lol.
     

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    Well, I am reading this sitting in my CA living room and starring at my Aerotack, my Seven Evergreen Pro, My Seven Sola XX and my Spectrum. I guess 3 of these were designed and sold by you. lol.
    And one of those was designed by someone much shorter than you (I am assuming you went to the barn).
    Brian McLaughlin

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    Default Re: What to do about a nice frameset Than needs improved handling

    Quote Originally Posted by Bewheels View Post
    And one of those was designed by someone much shorter than you (I am assuming you went to the barn).
    I did not. I rode with TK several times. This and a geo chart of my Crumpton was plenty for him to completely ace the spec.
     

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