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Thread: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

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    Default Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    I flew by some dorky looking adverts on my FB feed the last couple of days, and then I came across this article today.

    The video is interesting although I can't say I'm a fan of the looks.

    There are several things to like, at least in theory, and one is that given it's thermoplastic rather than thermoset, it should be much more impact resistant.

    Thoughts?
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Needs more valve stem.

    Walter

    Calmer than you are.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Haha! I also noticed in the video that one of the computer renderings of a version with traditional spokes has a front wheel with radial lacing despite it being equipped with disc brakes.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Industrial designers are stuck in 1992.
    Doesn't Rolf own the paired spoke universe ?


    Kestrel.jpg

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott G. View Post
    Industrial designers are stuck in 1992.
    Doesn't Rolf own the paired spoke universe ?


    Kestrel.jpg
    Not even remotely the same. The Superstrata is 1x. And a slightly different shade of white.
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Strongin View Post
    Not even remotely the same. The Superstrata is 1x. And a slightly different shade of white.
    Superstrata has not licensed the Kettenschlag-Tragarm from Uncle Dieter.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Everybody wants to get rid of one tube in designing a far out futuristic bike. the only designs like these that seem to have any intended function with staying power to boot is the Cannondale Lefty. I have no idea why, though I ha e seen a couple cool lefties on Euro and South American XC MTB Instagram.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by zambenini View Post
    Everybody wants to get rid of one tube in designing a far out futuristic bike. the only designs like these that seem to have any intended function with staying power to boot is the Cannondale Lefty. I have no idea why, though I ha e seen a couple cool lefties on Euro and South American XC MTB Instagram.
    Leftys have stuck around because their performance outweighs any weirdness about them.
    Eric Doswell, aka Edoz
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    In Before the Lock

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott G. View Post
    Doesn't Rolf own the paired spoke universe ?
    John Cobb may actually have that patent on a tandem airfoil.

    Trod Harland, Physical Educator

    Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. James Baldwin

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    is that given it's thermoplastic rather than thermoset, it should be much more impact resistant.

    Thoughts?
    Thermoplastic matrix CF has higher impact strength than thermoset but it's still terrible and comes at the cost of lower tensile strength.

    Thermoplastics are impact resistant because they are soft and easily deformed so they flow away from the impact site. Fill them with CF and the fibres take the stress so this behaviour no longer dominates.

    If the composite resists fibre pullout the stress is distributed via Von Mises equal strain criterion and CF fractures at relatively low strains depending on type: UHM fibres are often under 1% (which is, by the way, why they are a terrible idea for bikes unless someone is paying you to ride their bike). At say 2% strain (typical of standard and IM CF) a composite with 60% standard modulus CF and 40% thermoplastic matrix the matrix takes less than 1% of the stress.

    If the composite doesn't resist fibre pullout the fibres can pull away from the matrix, leaving more of the stress to be taken by the matrix, leading to better impact strength when measured to actual failure but this is a chimera because you've lost adhesion between fibre and matrix so the composite is fatally weakened.
    Mark Kelly

    maker@lyrebirdcycles.com

    lyrebirdcycles.com

    The world is analogue, digital is a facsimile therof.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Both guerrilla gravity for frames and revel for wheels are using thermoplastic carbon for MTB applications and reports so far are positive.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
    Thermoplastic matrix CF has higher impact strength than thermoset but it's still terrible and comes at the cost of lower tensile strength.

    Thermoplastics are impact resistant because they are soft and easily deformed so they flow away from the impact site. Fill them with CF and the fibres take the stress so this behaviour no longer dominates.

    If the composite resists fibre pullout the stress is distributed via Von Mises equal strain criterion and CF fractures at relatively low strains depending on type: UHM fibres are often under 1% (which is, by the way, why they are a terrible idea for bikes unless someone is paying you to ride their bike). At say 2% strain (typical of standard and IM CF) a composite with 60% standard modulus CF and 40% thermoplastic matrix the matrix takes less than 1% of the stress.

    If the composite doesn't resist fibre pullout the fibres can pull away from the matrix, leaving more of the stress to be taken by the matrix, leading to better impact strength when measured to actual failure but this is a chimera because you've lost adhesion between fibre and matrix so the composite is fatally weakened.
    What you're describing applies to "traditional" CFRP. When people started applying additive manufacturing techniques to CF a little less than 10 years ago, the various approaches ended up in the same place, a composite of CF, regardless of modulus, and resin of some form.

    I realise that the guy talking in the video is a designer who is marketing the product rather than a materials scientist, so one needs to take what he says with a pinch of salt. However, it is an intriguing notion. Do you have an insight into what Arevo have actually done and achieved?

    Despite all the benefits of AM, I confess that I am still a little sceptical about high stress applications. The (allegedly) largest metals AM players in Europe make Ti bits for bicycles, including drop-outs. The guy who runs it is a keen cyclist. He says that he would never ride a frame with 3D printed Ti bits. Kinda makes one wonder.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    What you're describing applies to "traditional" CFRP. When people started applying additive manufacturing techniques to CF a little less than 10 years ago, the various approaches ended up in the same place, a composite of CF, regardless of modulus, and resin of some form.
    As far as I am aware it still applies to CF composites produced by additive manufacturing since the fibres must be fed through the deposition nozzle and stuck together with co-extruded plastic which forms the matrix. Unless someone invents a nozzle that can directly pyrolise pitch or PAN, the constraints will always apply.

    Regarding additive metal manufacturing, I had a good discussion with the guys from Bastion because I thought a hybrid of our technologies might be interesting (eg a bike with wood composite tubes and 3D printed Ti joints). They say their 3D printed Ti achieves 90% of the strength of the same alloy in wrought form. Given that these guys are all proper engineers ex car manufacturing, I am sure they can justify that.
    Mark Kelly

    maker@lyrebirdcycles.com

    lyrebirdcycles.com

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Needs more valve stem.

    Pretty sure I had those wheels in 20" circa '83.



    BITD, they had Campy hubs.

    They were not light, but not easy to destroy either.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    You'd have to be a complete crackpot to buy that bike and it's complete unfair dragging tuffs into this thread as they are awesome.
    Lee James Jones
    105 fan

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Needs more valve stem.

    We are all different, but that valve placement would properly do my head in. I need it to be in the middle between the spokes.
    Colin Mclelland

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by bertiewhang View Post
    You'd have to be a complete crackpot to buy that bike and it's complete unfair dragging tuffs into this thread as they are awesome.
    The only use case where white was more awesomer. God, the twelve year old me wanted some off those
    Colin Mclelland

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    I'd ride one if I were given one - that's about the nicest thing I can say.

    Also, this design means having to look like a Tri-hard with a seat mounted second bottle. As if it's not ugly enough already...

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by RichTheRoadie View Post
    I'd ride one if I were given one - that's about the nicest thing I can say.

    Also, this design means having to look like a Tri-hard with a seat mounted second bottle. As if it's not ugly enough already...
    Camelback FTW.

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    Default Re: Superstrata, 3D printed carbon bikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
    Regarding additive metal manufacturing, I had a good discussion with the guys from Bastion because I thought a hybrid of our technologies might be interesting (eg a bike with wood composite tubes and 3D printed Ti joints). They say their 3D printed Ti achieves 90% of the strength of the same alloy in wrought form. Given that these guys are all proper engineers ex car manufacturing, I am sure they can justify that.
    Totally OT, but do you know why they opted for AM instead of using another method? That head tube shape is impractical to achieve otherwise, but was there a real structural/mechanical problem they were trying to solve?
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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