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Thread: Shimano sucks

  1. #1
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    Default Shimano sucks

    OK, this is about venting out of frustration hence the not so subtle title. I bought an Orbea terra gravel bike in autumn. It is not in my habit but for once I bought a complete bike and generally liked the idea to have a full matching group. I used to buy parts on the second hand market to bring the cost down and often had mismatched group levels.

    So in the first few months of riding my fitness was so bad that I almost never used the 11t-12t-13t-14t cog on the big ring. Fast forward a few months and I am hammering on the big ring, and realise the transmission is noisy on the 12-13-14t cog. I stop to check what is wrong and realise the chain is rubbing on the front derailleur cage on these cogs. I use the barrel adjuster to had a bit of tension but reach the max while the front derailleur do not really move further. I check the upper limit screw and nope, I have movement left, I can move the cage further outside with my hand and it indeed remove any tranny noise.. So I come to the conclusion that I need way more tension. I adjust the barrel to the min tension, release the cable and try to tension it more but end up with a front derailleur that cannot shift to the big ring anymore, even when dialing again the barrel to the max. I repeated this procedure like 15 times at the side of the road - I really didn't want to ride home the last 30k on the small ring - without any luck. Only my anger grew.

    I forgot to say that the GRX derailleur is made so that the bolts are at the worst position and is a pain in the ass to deal with with a multitool lwith a wide form factor such as my lezyne with integrated chain tool.

    I ended up riding home on the small ring, using as many offroad sections as possible to slow down my avg speed and make my ride bearable.

    2 days laters, attempting to set it up again, on the work stand with a brand new shimano cable. No luck. I came to the point I wished a slow and exrremely painful death to the guy who came up wuth this GRX design. Out of frustration, I end up looking for a "normal" front derailleur in my parts bin and in 10 minutes I have a campy veloce 10sp setup. I can see it is not made for my shifters cable pull but still, it works and shift well and quick and I do not have any rub. How comes I can setup a front derailleur for a different brand but struggle with the matching one?

    And now I have a mismatch again:



    So much for people making jokes about Sram not being able to build front derailleur shifting that works. I never had any problem setting up a sram front derailleur.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Note: I understand I probably missed something very obvious and need to read some docs. But for xxx's sake, we shouldn't have tonread a manual for a front derailleur. Their basic design has been dialed more than 50y ago and they have worked so perfectly for so many years? Why did they have to come up with a more complicated and heavier design for no obvious advantage . I don't feel like it shifted any better than the standardly designed dura-ace derailleur I had on my previous bike.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 03-06-2021 at 02:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Just like bib chamois, most of this shit is over-engineered.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    You could go for style points and install a 1974 Super Record.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    There’s a way to do it, but yeah it seems like they had someone from their fishing reel division design the cable rat’s nest on top. Reminds me of the bail release on a spinning reel. The goal was to allow for wider and/or knobbier tires for road/gravel. They really should simplify the mechanism or toss the design in the bin and start over. Once it is set, it works fine. But if you need to adjust or reset anything, you likely need a new cable because the cable clamp bolt is more of a cable crusher.

    Also I think multitools are dumb. Just carry hex wrenches and a small screwdriver wrapped in a piece of electric tape.
    Last edited by j44ke; 03-06-2021 at 04:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    The ‘new’ fd works great but needs to be set up a bit different then other models. Read the manual and try again.

    One change is the high limit works differently than what you are probably used to. The derailleur can overshift by design, and you set where you want it to sit versus the max distance it can throw
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Such a shame because the new Ultegra is absolutely mind blowingly good. The new design is great, love the stability of the extra screw that touches the hanger etc. etc. etc.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Yeah I'll probably give it another go later when I will have read the instruction. It just didn't occured to me it would be that not straightforward. I assumed my first failure was due to the multitool. Now I just wabted to be able to ride tomorrow so I installed whatever other derailleur I had.

    There is also a a bit of failure on the orbea part. A bike shouldn't leave a factory or a a bikeshop with chain rubbing on some cogs
    I just didn't realise it earlier due to my bad fitness.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 03-06-2021 at 06:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    Yeah I'll probably give it another go later when I will have read the instruction. It just didn't occured to me it would be that not straightforward. I assumed my first failure was due to the multitool. Now I just wabted to be able to ride tomorrow so I installed whatever other derailleur I had.

    There is also a a bit of failure on the orbea part. A bike shouldn't leave a factory or a a bikeshop with chain rubbing on some cogs
    I just didn't realise it earlier due to my bad fitness.
    Use the Shimano Dealer's Manual instructions. They are pretty clear. Don't skip any steps. The installation process before you connect the cable is important for maintaining alignment later on in the process. The high/low limit and trim stop adjustments are also different - almost like they are backwards. And then there is the multi-part clamp bolt that has to be done correctly or the tension adjustment screw doesn't work right.

    https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/s...001-01-ENG.pdf

    Like I said (and others have said,) it works well once set up but geez it sure seem overcomplicated. You have to do the steps. And that plastic top cap really does not inspire a lot of confidence.

    Also I like to use a ratcheting hex wrench for the cable clamp bolt. That way you tighten/loosen without removing the hex from the bolt. Just makes things less fumbly.

    Last edited by j44ke; 03-06-2021 at 07:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    I get a chuckle out of "I want to ride tomorrow. It's easier to install a new one than adjust what's there." Something the guys that drew that thing up ought to see.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Hey, has anyone tried to see if a 105 5700 FD would work with the latest 11 spd Shimano shifters? My Dura Ace 7800 setup with the old short arm FD still works awesome with very little trim needed... SMH...
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Would it make you feel better if I told you I spent three days adjusting the same fr. derailleur until it was perfection? Totally stupid finish for the cable esp. for folks used to things that (cough) make sense. The nerd in my wants to say RTFM but that's insulting. None the less, if you are able to translate the jobberish, it begins to make sense which is also unfortunate because than your rage will peak due to the lack of common sense!!!!
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    My only beef with it is how the cable is managed after you tighten the pinch bolt. That is stupid. However, the built in preload feature and the aligning lines are brilliant and it is a great fd once set up properly. I like them much more than the prior generation. Like a lot of newer bike parts, it is different than the older stuff and takes some study and knowledge. You can't just pull it out of the package, throw it on, and expect it to work right.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    I guess that's my problem with some of this stuff. It's a simple item. You pull on a lever. It goes over there. You put a lever back where it was. It goes back where it started. How does that become complicated?
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    It's not complicated, it's just different than preceding fds. You need to know how to set up the cable tension. Once you do, it works great (assuming the angle is correct and its at the correct height).
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by twowheels View Post
    It's not complicated, it's just different than preceding fds. You need to know how to set up the cable tension. Once you do, it works great (assuming the angle is correct and its at the correct height).
    This.

    It’s different. Once setup properly, it’s so good.
    -Dustin
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Yea, i'll be honest. I dont like the new FD. LBS shop kid told me it was a game changer.
    it worked great for a while and then i dont know how, but it was undertensioned and then just would not shift at all for me on an even longer ride (like 90 miles, with a lot of climbing and off road).
    I immediately said, forget that because its on my S&S and i want something that is not going to give me any trouble when i pull it from a suitcase.
    The old derailleurs were pretty easy...i bet the long armed ones are amazing if you have the tire clearance.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Shimano sucks ? This is a revelation.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    The long armed ones took voodoo to get the cable tension right, like a 5mm allen wrench stuck in the right place, or pulling it just the right amount toward the big ring while you tightened the pinch bolt. Then they worked fine. The new one eliminates that variable.

    If the tension went off, its was an issue upstream of the derailleur.
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    I think the new front derailleur was designed to allow clearance for wider tires without altering road bike frame standards (BB width in particular I guess) and then to compensate for the loss of cable adjusters on newer internal cable systems.

    The previous version with the longer arm worked well if set up with extra tension by adjusting the lower limit screw so the front derailleur touched the chain. Then you attached the cable while pulled tightly and backed off the lower limit screw. But sometimes you needed the adjuster to fine tune the chain clearance and then also to fine tune the trim stop. If you didn't have a frame-mounted cable stop adjuster, you could put an inline adjuster on the front cable housing.

    That doesn't work with cable & housing routes that enter the handle bar and travel through the stem into the frame and down to the bottom bracket. And on some bikes, the long actuator arm on the derailleur caught on tire knobs. It otherwise had pretty great mechanical advantage.
    Last edited by j44ke; 03-06-2021 at 11:14 PM.
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