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Thread: Shimano sucks

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by suhacycles View Post
    Hey, has anyone tried to see if a 105 5700 FD would work with the latest 11 spd Shimano shifters? My Dura Ace 7800 setup with the old short arm FD still works awesome with very little trim needed... SMH...
    Since I reluctantly went 11 speed 5 yrs ago, I've been using a CX-70 with 5800 and 6800 shifters to better accommodate the smaller rings on a subcompact crankset and avoid the long roadie derailleur arm that didn't work with fat tires. Works great using the old school setup logic without RTFM. It requires the occasional trim when the chainline angle is near the extremes, but otherwise I see no reason to replace it with the newest.

    IIRC, I think it was BigBill who suggested the idea, so thanks for that! Trouble free front shifting with no fat tire interference and old man chainrings
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    I think the new front derailleur was designed to allow clearance for wider tires without altering road bike frame standards (BB width in particular I guess) and then to compensate for the loss of cable adjusters on newer internal cable systems.

    The previous version with the longer arm worked well if set up with extra tension by adjusting the lower limit screw so the front derailleur touched the chain. Then you attached the cable while pulled tightly and backed off the lower limit screw. But sometimes you needed the adjuster to fine tune the chain clearance and then also to fine tune the trim stop. If you didn't have a frame-mounted cable stop adjuster, you could put an inline adjuster on the front cable housing.

    That doesn't work with cable & housing routes that enter the handle bar and travel through the stem into the frame and down to the bottom bracket. And on some bikes, the long actuator arm on the derailleur caught on tire knobs. It otherwise had pretty great mechanical advantage.
    yes and no

    certain exit angles from the BB rendered the old long arm style near useless. You would have to loop the cable over the top of the bolt, which changed the leverage ratio and mess with your trim positions

    new fangled one is better in every regard once you figure out how to set them up
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by andrew flowers View Post
    yes and no

    certain exit angles from the BB rendered the old long arm style near useless. You would have to loop the cable over the top of the bolt, which changed the leverage ratio and mess with your trim positions

    new fangled one is better in every regard once you figure out how to set them up
    Ah right - I had forgotten about that. Fortunately not a problem on the family bikes.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Ya, my problem was upstream, changed headset and stem length and it messed with tension. However, when you need to increase tension , it is not easy with the new design, might as well put in a new cable. I had nowhere to go to increase the tension.

    the main thing i dont like is how the cable is tucked away. i mean it looks nice and i guess is part of the tension adjust mechanism...
    now that I think about it, getting even a 7900 derailleur right with the trimless set up was very annoying--required much lower tension than you would think to get it working well.
    FDs are always the more complicated adjustment. Having said that...you know what was nice? 6600 7800 derailleur. Easy to tune, trim, and shifted very nicely. That's no secret, but it's funny to see how shimano while of course was always excellent when correctly tuned, took a few steps back or to the side before arriving here. I think some of us are just a bit cranky remembering when the old derailleur was easy to set up, shifted nice, was light and simple/intuitive to service. maybe i'm a retro grouch? (i will post my somewhat unique solution when I get my bike rebuilt ).
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    I just realized, I'm using the older style AD15 FD braze-on adapter not the SM-AD91 that's noted in the manual. No wonder that little support bolt doesn't seem to do anything on my setup and the FD seems positioned a little far out.
    Maybe I'll try my older 5700 FD and report back...
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    You are doing it all wrong and blaming Shimano.

    They work amazing IF YOU SET THEM UP RIGHT and they are not like any other FD

    Watch the YT video and set it up correctly and you will never have to touch it again

    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Good rule of thumb in life

    Before publicly bitching, RTFM!!!
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertime View Post
    RTFM!!!
    There are a lot of other reasons they suck right now but this mech isn't one of them

    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    I have both styles and still prefer the older 11 speed front. It needs cable tension to work well.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    This thread captured my experiences with Shimano 10 and 11-speed front derailleurs. My summary:

    - 6600/7800 were the high water marks for Shimano ease of installation and subsequent reliability. 7800 in particular was a joy to set up and stayed in tune forever. I ran one 7800 group through all its wear parts (chains, cassettes, chainrings, cables, brake pads) over seven years. It worked as well in year seven as it did in year one.

    - Both first (5800/6800/9000) and second generation (R7000/R8000/R9000) 11-speed front derailleurs require attention to the installation instructions to work well. First gen needs the cable alignment tool(s) and some way to tension the cable (e.g., a barrel adjuster or the popular hex wrench hack). Second gen requires adherence to Shimanoís instructions. Both work great if configured correctly.

    - The long arm first gen front derailleurs could be fussy with some cable geometries. They could also hit fat, knobby tires, especially on bikes with short chainstays. They were prone to gumming up in muddy conditions if top tube cable routing and seat tube cable pulleys were used. The CX-70 front derailleurs were a great solution in these instances. I use one on an otherwise all 5800/6800 drivetrain. The top-pull CX-70 eliminated the need for a seat tube pulley and shifts perfectly.

    Greg
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
    The nerd in my wants to say RTFM but that's insulting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertime View Post
    Good rule of thumb in life

    Before publicly bitching, RTFM!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    You are doing it all wrong and blaming Shimano.

    They work amazing IF YOU SET THEM UP RIGHT
    I should know better I am an IT system engineer. BUT BUT BUT...why should I have to expect to read a manual on the side of the road because my still almost brand new bike make some transmission noise while I've been able to setup fd for decades without a second thought? It is not like it shift better.


    and they are not like any other FD

    Watch the YT video and set it up correctly and you will never have to touch it again

    - Garro.
    Ok I have read the manual and now understand how I should set it up, using limit screw as tensionning helpers instead of ahem ... limit screw. What I don't understand is the reasonning behind its design while the traditionnal design perform the same and is more practical and less fidly to setup and is a 30s fix at the side of the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    I get a chuckle out of "I want to ride tomorrow. It's easier to install a new one than adjust what's there." Something the guys that drew that thing up ought to see.
    THIS THIS THIS

    It doesn't shift better. And all the other points mentionned in this thread are at best dubious. Clearance? Frames that come with that kind of bikes already take into account clearance. Hey I don't have any clearance issue after switching to that veloce FD and regular fds have been used with fat bikes and were fine for how many years already? Fully internally routed frames that don't allow for barrel adjusters? Sooner or later cables eventually stretch. Just let the frame manufacturer integrate the barrel adjuster into the frame, designing the fd differently won't stop cables from stretching, ferrules from and housing from sitting in. Also for years I have lived without barrel adjusters. Why? Because retensionning a front derailleur cable was a few second job. Switch down to the lower positio, release the bolt, pull the cable while retorquing it. Easy peasy. With this FD you have to start over and fiddle with your lower limit screw, go to the mid trim position, all this with an unneeded plastic thing to click out and a bolt in the worse position to use with the most standard tool. EPIC ENGINEERING FAILURE.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:01 PM.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    The derailleur has a barrel adjuster built in to it. You donít need one any more

    The average rider asks a ton of their derailleurs with the 16t chainring gaps, coupled with 23t cassette ranges. There is a reason things are more complicated

    Most of you have nice bikes, and the 9100 fd does have an issue with the cable routing. You canít do the normal loop around like 8000/7000/rx800/etc. With those you have to fish the cable through before putting on the cap/lead end.

    The new derailleurs are weird to set up. I have done hundreds at this point, and know the Ďtricksí, but I see good mechanics struggle the first few times because it is different then older models. Much the same as yaw derailleurs when they came out. These, unlike anything that came before them are intended to work on rim and disc frames, with chainstays between 407mm and who knows how long. They are also supposed to handle chainring combos that span a massive range.

    Give it a shot, because I can assure you that with things like this, shimano knows what they are doing.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    OK, since I've found the adjustment of my 105 R7000 FD to be annoying as well and don't have a newer AD91 FD clamp handy I figured I'd slap on a 5700 FD with the silver AD15 FD clamp with my current setup:
    9100 Dura Ace shifters
    6800 50/34 crank
    Ultegra 11 spd chain
    11-30 Ultegra cassette
    415 chainstay length
    Jagwire inline barrel adjuster

    Drum roll..... IT WORKS! Wow, gotta say I was surprised. You have to get the low end limit screw 'perfect' but the cable tension doesn't have to be quite as tight as with the long arm 6800 FD that I had at one point. More surprising, in the big ring with the FD in it's most outward trim position the FD doesn't require any trim throughout the cassette. No rubbing AT ALL from the 11 to the 27 cog! No, Shimano does not suck but it looks like you already had your fix for those long arm models anyway!
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by skouri1 View Post
    Ya, my problem was upstream, changed headset and stem length and it messed with tension. However, when you need to increase tension , it is not easy with the new design, might as well put in a new cable. I had nowhere to go to increase the tension.

    the main thing i dont like is how the cable is tucked away. i mean it looks nice and i guess is part of the tension adjust mechanism...
    now that I think about it, getting even a 7900 derailleur right with the trimless set up was very annoying--required much lower tension than you would think to get it working well.
    FDs are always the more complicated adjustment. Having said that...you know what was nice? 6600 7800 derailleur. Easy to tune, trim, and shifted very nicely. That's no secret, but it's funny to see how shimano while of course was always excellent when correctly tuned, took a few steps back or to the side before arriving here. I think some of us are just a bit cranky remembering when the old derailleur was easy to set up, shifted nice, was light and simple/intuitive to service. maybe i'm a retro grouch? (i will post my somewhat unique solution when I get my bike rebuilt ).
    Wrong wrong wrong. EASY? Easy is a Nuvo Record FD, if it does not hit anything bend the barstard so it almost does and good to go.

    Sheesh. Easy. ha!
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    What do folks feel is the best FD choice for Dura Ace 9120 shifters and 44-30 chainrings (11-34 HG800 cassette)? I was planning on using a CX70 I have on hand that was shifting 44-33 rings (same cassette) with earlier 11 speed RS685 hydro shifters. I have the R8000 FD on a bike with 9100 shifters, 46-34 rings and 11-34 cassette. Both the CX70 and the more modern R8000 do the job. The R8000 was more finicky to set up initially. I'd chosen the CX70 on the earlier bike because I thought it would shift the smaller rings better.
    Thanks for your input.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    Sooner or later cables eventually stretch...cables...stretching...
    We realize that cables, like chains, donít actually stretch, right? I mean nobody pulls on a cable hard enough to plastically deform it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    ...ferrules from and housing from sitting in.
    Bingo (I think). Itís all the other things settling in.

    This thread makes me happy that the next planned upgrade for my road bike for dirt roads is using shifters from 2004. And a square taper bottom bracket. Iím only gonna ask the front mech to handle a 12-tooth jump.

    ...round-bend bars, no flare. Also round in section.

    ...175-mm crankarms. Aluminum, anodized silver.

    ...aluminum rims.

    ...skinwall tires.

    ...saddle w/ rivets.

    ...cable-actuated brakes.

    ...largest cog will have fewer than 40 teeth.

    Somebody please help me disengage the Luddite Troll Mode (LTM(TM)) from this reply!
    Trod Harland, Physical Educator

    Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. ó James Baldwin
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    built in barrel adjuster and more cable routing options. is it as simple as the old stuff? no, but it can handle wider tires in the back and still shift reasonably on wide-range gearing.

    there is literally a text box set off on the cover page of the dealer manual that states "Procedures for cable tension adjustment and top adjustment differ from those of previous models.
    Be sure to read this dealer's manual thoroughly before use, and follow it for correct use."

    Campagnolo sucks too when you don't know hot to set it up properly
    am I the only Marvin?
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by thollandpe View Post
    We realize that cables, like chains, don’t actually stretch, right? I mean nobody pulls on a cable hard enough to plastically deform it.



    Bingo (I think). It’s all the other things settling in.

    This thread makes me happy that the next planned upgrade for my road bike for dirt roads is using shifters from 2004. And a square taper bottom bracket. I’m only gonna ask the front mech to handle a 12-tooth jump.

    ...round-bend bars, no flare. Also round in section.

    ...175-mm crankarms. Aluminum, anodized silver.

    ...aluminum rims.

    ...skinwall tires.

    ...saddle w/ rivets.

    ...cable-actuated brakes.

    ...largest cog will have fewer than 40 teeth.

    Somebody please help me disengage the Luddite Troll Mode (LTM(TM)) from this reply!
    So I can send you a proper 12X23 "Pie Plate" and done right?
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Quote Originally Posted by giordana93 View Post
    there is literally a text box set off on the cover page of the dealer manual that states "Procedures for cable tension adjustment and top adjustment differ from those of previous models.
    Be sure to read this dealer's manual thoroughly before use, and follow it for correct use."
    Somehow it wasn't in the box of the bike the bike shop sent to me ;-)
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Shimano sucks

    Anyway, this thread was more about venting my frustration than stating that shimano sucks. All 3 big tranny manufacturer do great products even if they sometimes have a few shitty ones or do not always fit our requirements and I obviously should have read the manual before trying again on my work stand. I just didn't expect that as I never had any difficulty setting up a front der, even the long arm ones some had troubles with.

    If a mod wants to close it, I don't want to monopolize the forum more on some sort of half troll.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:43 AM.
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