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Thread: one more nail in the coffin atmo -

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    the tie is a freaking metaphor atmo.
    sheesh.
    Further, what the article originally described was the death of a ritual, ATMO. I did not read it, nor any of the initial responses of on this thread as a statement in favor of wearing suits and ties every day. Rather, there certain times and places where old rituals are important.

    Brooks sums it up well in the closing lines of the column I referenced,
    "Institutions (could also substitute the word 'ritual') do all the things that are supposed to be bad. They impede personal exploration. They enforce conformity.

    But they often save us from our weaknesses and give meaning to life."
     

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
    ...there certain times and places where old rituals are important.

    Brooks sums it up well in the closing lines of the column I referenced,
    "Institutions (could also substitute the word 'ritual') do all the things that are supposed to be bad. They impede personal exploration. They enforce conformity.

    But they often save us from our weaknesses and give meaning to life."
    amen

    GO!

  3. #43
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    Default Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    i'm a longtime effete elitist who clings to tradition and heritage,
    and when i read shit like this i cringe atmo. i remember when i
    was a junior at peddie and ruing that my final year there would
    have girls on campus. i was against the coed thing then and there,
    and believe some practices in life are the way they are because
    they work well, are not broken, and don't need fixing atmo. i'll
    keep my ties, thank you very much...



    without "traditional garb" - how would t.e. lawrence have made it to akaba!!!

    ronnie
     

  4. #44
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    Default Millbrook went co-ed

    between my sop@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%re and junior years. Didn't seem to make much difference in the school's traditions since they revolved around a student run community, not the all boys thing. Jackets and ties were required for all classes, lunch and dinner, but not breakfast. When you grow up that way, it just seems right. I still tie a tie every Sunday morning unless I am going to a race. Still seems right. In Church, I surely don't need to impress anyone, but I can show respect to those for whom it matters.
    Last edited by Tom Kellogg; 01-28-2009 at 06:43 PM. Reason: clean up
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    Mr. Sachs, I always took you for a bow tie man.


    he snot that old, nor that gay.
     

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
    Brooks sums it up well in the closing lines of the column I referenced,
    "Institutions (could also substitute the word 'ritual') do all the things that are supposed to be bad. They impede personal exploration. They enforce conformity.

    But they often save us from our weaknesses and give meaning to life."
    I went to an allboys school, now co-ed. Yep, more of them go to better schools than we did but it is a different place. Not worse, not better but different.

    I also wore a uniform at military college and in the Marines most days. What Brooks says about conformity has a place sometimes. Doesn't mean I was mindless without original thought, but conformity sure pays off when the shootin' starts.

    Pat
     

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    .......
    Attached Images Attached Images
     

  8. #48
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    Yes! That is a tie worn to perfection!
    I'll bet he rides a bicycle to stay in shape and maintain that energy, too.

     

  9. #49
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    But those Reeboks are killing me.

    Smith parties, tube amps, and then Angus.
    This is the best thread ever.
     

  10. #50
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    I miss the ability to tell someone no and for them to hear it. People have become so self-centered that their own wish is an expected command of others.

    Young people do not hear no, they lose their awe of adults as they see their parents fight to get their own way. A tie, coat, manners, and respect all speak to the individual. Young people need discipline to function and grow.
    BUT, I think adults need that as well. I am beginning to see more and more folks declare their entitlement to self gratification.

    People need to hear no and realize it means fucking no!

    I like proper, I think it adds to the mystery of a man. But proper isn't just in the look, it needs to be in the man as well. They go hand in hand. atmo
    Dave Bradley...not the grumpy old Hogwarts caretaker "Mr. Filch" or the star of American Ninja 3 and 4.

    formerly "Mr.President"

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    Quote Originally Posted by csbmo View Post
    he snot that old, nor that gay.
    Some of the best, manliest men I know regularly sport a bow tie. Once I grey a bit I will, too. I don't think there's anything "gay" about wearing a tie that doesn't point to your zipper.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.President View Post
    I miss the ability to tell someone no and for them to hear it. People have become so self-centered that their own wish is an expected command of others.

    Young people do not hear no, they lose their awe of adults as they see their parents fight to get their own way. A tie, coat, manners, and respect all speak to the individual. Young people need discipline to function and grow.
    BUT, I think adults need that as well. I am beginning to see more and more folks declare their entitlement to self gratification.

    People need to hear no and realize it means fucking no!

    I like proper, I think it adds to the mystery of a man. But proper isn't just in the look, it needs to be in the man as well. They go hand in hand. atmo

    I teach inner city teens. I agree with your assessment. Discipline isn't a look, it is a mental state. Kids can see through anything.
    People need to stop looking with their eyes and start looking with their minds.

    The world economy is a'shambles due to men in suits and ties. Character is naked.

    I want it and I want it now!!!
     

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifracing View Post
    I teach inner city teens. I agree with your assessment. Discipline isn't a look, it is a mental state. Kids can see through anything.
    People need to stop looking with their eyes and start looking with their minds.

    The world economy is a'shambles due to men in suits and ties. Character is naked.

    I want it and I want it now!!!
    I teach younger kids, but started in cities and moved to the burbs. Now I teach Richie Rich.

    Before I became a teacher I worked with Gang kids and middle school kids from affluent families in Chicago and Evanston. Bridging barriers right.

    Loads of fascinating differences. Polar.

    Some clashes of course, but both sides treated me with much respect as I tolerated nothing. Rapor, discipline, and expectations.

    Bruno, you ever read The Essential 55 interesting stuff. Some good ideas, some crap. Boils down to relentlessness with expectations.
    Dave Bradley...not the grumpy old Hogwarts caretaker "Mr. Filch" or the star of American Ninja 3 and 4.

    formerly "Mr.President"

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.President View Post
    I miss the ability to tell someone no and for them to hear it. People have become so self-centered that their own wish is an expected command of others.

    Young people do not hear no, they lose their awe of adults as they see their parents fight to get their own way. A tie, coat, manners, and respect all speak to the individual. Young people need discipline to function and grow.
    BUT, I think adults need that as well. I am beginning to see more and more folks declare their entitlement to self gratification.

    People need to hear no and realize it means fucking no!

    I like proper, I think it adds to the mystery of a man. But proper isn't just in the look, it needs to be in the man as well. They go hand in hand. atmo

    SOLD ---- 100%

    ronnie :)
     

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Robb View Post
    One guess/observation: Men who have to wear suits for work all week are not too keen to wear them to go out for fun on weekends. Men who work in other clothes all week may find it fun/novel to get dressed up on weekends. I suppose a psychologist could draw some relationship between wearing work or play clothes and a person's frame of mind. A suit=work clothes= no fun tonight.
    Jeans/t-shirt= work clothes= no fun tonight.
    Pretty much sums it up for me (well, aside fron the equation... Ken probably meant "Jeans/t-shirt= fun clothes= no work tonight"). Beside the fact that I looked debonair at happy hour in wool, tie and cufflinks, when I was spending 5 days a week in a suit and tie (for well more than a decade), I had little use for them.

    Could have been that I got out of school in a rough job market and had to spend a significant chunk of my starting salary right out of the gate just to buy enough suits to wear a different one 3 or 4 days out of a week. Or that dry cleaning costs can really add up when you are a year or two into real employment. But more likely it was one particular CEO that thought no one’s presence was worthy if they weren’t wearing the right threads. Despite the fact that we **actually dressed DOWN when customers visited so they wouldn’t feel uncomfortable** (tell me that’s not whack…we only wore “dress” when we knew we wouldn’t interact with anyone).

    Anyway, I’m not emotionally scarred. (well, not too badly) Now that I work from home and wear jeans and fleece in the winter and shorts and tee shirts in summer, I actually like getting dressed up when I travel or go out to an “occasion”. But I’ve got little use for anyone else’s mandate on how I should dress these days. I’m my own Ken Doll atmo.
     

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    Some of the best, manliest men I know regularly sport a bow tie. Once I grey a bit I will, too. I don't think there's anything "gay" about wearing a tie that doesn't point to your zipper.
    ... chippendales
     

  17. #57
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    I will contradict myself in the course of this post, but, some traditions are just crap. Take the legal community - traditionally barristers had to wear a special jacket, gown, wig, the whole regalia to appear in court. Thankfully this tradition is being stripped back and uncomfortable, expensive and impractical wear is gradually going the way of the dodo. On the other hand, a lawyer will not be heard in court if they are not wearing a suit and tie. How does what you are wearing in this example have any bearing on what is in fact being said, which is what the client is paying you for in the first place? The answer is it has no bearing, but tradition dictates that a suit and tie be worn. Ridiculous. Likewise casual Friday. What is achieved for four days of the week in a suit and a tie is achieved in exactly the same manner and at exactly the same price in jeans and a shirt. So why wear a suit at all? You get taught as a child to not judge a book by its cover, yet as an adult you are required to effectively do the opposite, at least on a superficial basis.

    Okay, the contradiction. When I go to a black tie function, I always get miffed by people who elect to wear a suit and tie, or even a black suit and tie instead of the traditional dinner suit. Odd given my views above.

    Finally, on the school front, I went to an all boys school for high school. Uniform was shorts and a shirt (tucked in of course) with socks pulled up in summer and long pants, shirt, tie and blazer in winter. When I was in about year 11 at school my parents went on holidays and I stayed with my Nana and rode my bike to school for a week or two. I was walking to the bike racks after school and was confronted by a fairly stern teacher stuck well and truly in the old school. My shirt was well and truly untucked. He told me to tuck it in. I protested that I was riding my bike and it would come untucked regardless. He did not care and told me to tuck it in. I did. It came untucked by the time I reached the school gate simply through pedalling. Tradition and rules (at least in this case) - ridiculous.
     

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    Some traditions just feel right. Except for the salmonella.
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    Why don't we do it in the road?

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    Default alan watts on clothing...

    For most of my life I have been in rebellion against the various riggings of cloth that authority and fashion have constrained me to wear. It is largely the fault of the British, who, as traditional arbiters of style in menís clothing, have foisted upon mankind the most ridiculous and uncomfortable forms of dress ever invented. British stylists have sold their absurd uniforms of tweed and worsted to the whole world. They have stripped the Japanese of their kimonos, the Sri Lankans of their sarongs, the Hindus of their dhotis, and the Levantines of their caftansóso that today a Japanese businessman goes about looking like a bag too large for its contents. Since the Japanese are relatively short, especially in the legs, the coattails reach well below their knees and one expects them at any moment to hop around and caw.

    Let me catalogue the follies of Western manís British-inspired dress:

    Pants or trousers are entirely unsuited to the male anatomy, and insult by ignoring the Membrum virile. (Into which leg do you put it?)

    The necktie, even when colourful, is a noose facilitating instant strangulation, and a symbol of servitude.

    Strong leather shoes, and especially those of the hard, shiny and inflexible type, are just extra weight to carry when walking; deny freedom of movement to the complex bone structure of the foot; and by airless enclosure promote sweat and stink.

    In sum, conventional male dress is trussing. It is tight, stiff and constricting, and we are so habituated to it that we feel vaguely guilty when, several hours after arising, we are still clad in some loose-fitting robe. The collar, the tie, the belt, the pants, the shoes, the tightly fitted jacket squeeze in on us with the information that we are indeed really and truly there. As if we didnít know
     

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    No jacket required in the Oval Office

    "I say, beware all enterprises that require new clothes, and not a new wearer of clothes. If there is not a new man, how can the new clothes be made to fit? If you have a new enterprise before you, try it in your old clothes. All men want, not something to do with, but something to do, or rather something to be. ... Our molting season, like that of the fowls, must be a crisis in our lives."

    - Henry David Thoreau

    If I was going to 21, I would wear a tie, or the Oval Office, a jacket; neither is likely, though, but I am prepared.


    davids - congratulations - is that a recent picture?
     

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