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Thread: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by thollandpe View Post
    I dig that tweak to the thumb doohickey.

    Not digging the 13 cogs in back, some of which have only 9 or 10 teeth, and only one ring up front. I mean I get it, but holy heck is that not my bag. Neither are the derailleur pulleys with all the grooves and holes to hold the grit and make it hard to clean.

    I dig the G3 spoke pattern when there’s an odd number (rear) but no so much when it’s even (front). I’m sure those are high-zoot, quality hoops.

    The design is certainly slick, even the packaging. Those brake rotors are the best I’ve ever had, so I dig those. The new calipers are flat-out sexy. But then again, I’m sticking with cable-actuated calipers. So I can keep my 10-speed levers. With a double or triple up front.

    I’m guessing that any bike on the floor wearing that gruppo is going to get some attention.
    I cannot disagree with any of this.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    142mm O.L.D.

    I’m out.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Any bets on when 13s road is available ?
    I'd like a cassette that starts at 12t.
    I'll use a bar-con for the front mech.

    For those of use still riding bikes of the 1980s.
    The new dual size Campy freehub, can I build a 126oln rear wheel,
    if I leave the freehub extension piece off, and shorten the axle ?

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    I’d guess not. The new version is slightly shorter I thing and has a spacer of some sort. Looks a bit odd but Campagnolo seem do have done their homework because a bunch of manufacturers are on board, including DT-Swiss and this is important because DT-Swiss make hubs and hub internals for many brands, including Bontrager (Trek) and Roval (Specialized). As much as we don’t need yet another standard in the cycling world, it appears they haven’t created an immediately outdated and orphaned product.

    The next step will be to see if anyone actually buys Ekar.
    Jim, it isn't clear but it will be a big disincentive if you need to buy a bunch of new wheels. I don't expect I'll be buying it. After many decades of riding campy, I'm a shimano convert.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by twowheels View Post
    Jim, it isn't clear but it will be a big disincentive if you need to buy a bunch of new wheels. I don't expect I'll be buying it. After many decades of riding campy, I'm a shimano convert.
    https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/next_3_ways

    answer is yes it is compatible with old wheels but with conversion kits:

    The N3W standard has been designed with an eye on the future, but Campagnolo hasn’t forgotten its keen cycling fans
    The N3W body will therefore fitted as standard on our new wheels, all equipped with 36-tooth side rack to give better resistance to the twisting torque;
    If needed, two conversion kits are available (for cone and cup code AC21-N3WRFCC, for sealed bearings cod. AC21-N3WRFCS) to adapt your faithful pedaling companions to the new N3W standard.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    9t and 10t cogs are a tough one. With 10t you can really feel the drag - that's the case with Rotor, SRAM, etc. On an MTB the drag isn't a big deal, on a road bike it's very noticeable.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinned View Post
    9t and 10t cogs are a tough one. With 10t you can really feel the drag - that's the case with Rotor, SRAM, etc. On an MTB the drag isn't a big deal, on a road bike it's very noticeable.
    I wondered about that but then someone reminded me you would likely be using the 9 or 10 while moving downhill so maybe not such a big issue? Overall, it looks great and the price seems very reasonable compared to similar groups.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    142mm O.L.D.

    I’m out.
    Quote Originally Posted by twowheels View Post
    https://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/next_3_ways

    answer is yes it is compatible with old wheels but with conversion kits:

    The N3W standard has been designed with an eye on the future, but Campagnolo hasn’t forgotten its keen cycling fans
    The N3W body will therefore fitted as standard on our new wheels, all equipped with 36-tooth side rack to give better resistance to the twisting torque;
    If needed, two conversion kits are available (for cone and cup code AC21-N3WRFCC, for sealed bearings cod. AC21-N3WRFCS) to adapt your faithful pedaling companions to the new N3W standard.
    So this is all disc brake only then? No rim brake? Axle standard and the list of convertible wheelsets seem to suggest this. Unless I guess you are using a through-axle dropout on a rim brake bike frame. Says the N3W freehub w/o adapter is compatible with 12 and 13 speed systems using smaller cogs 10 or fewer, so that seems to suggest road 12 speed disc with smaller cogs. Chorus 12 with 48/32 and a cassette starting at 9t?

    Are there photos of the Ekar shifter with a hand on it? I can't really figure out where the thumb is supposed to go. The image on the Campagnolo site is of a Super Record EPS shifter for some reason. The "macaroni" lever looks huge. No handlebar bag w/40cm wide bars?
    Last edited by j44ke; 09-25-2020 at 08:55 AM.
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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    So this is all disc brake only then? No rim brake? Axle standard and the list of convertible wheelsets seem to suggest this. Unless I guess you are using a through-axle dropout on a rim brake bike frame.

    Are there photos of the Ekar shifter with a hand on it? I can't really figure out where the thumb is supposed to go. The image on the Campagnolo site is of a Super Record EPS shifter for some reason. The "macaroni" lever looks huge. No handlebar bag w/40cm wide bars?
    I'd bet we will see 2x13 with rim brakes at some point, on Record or Super Record, but this groupset is disc only for now and is designed around thru-axles AFAIK.

    For those who want rim brakes and a wide range, Chorus is available with a sub-compact crankset, 2x shifting and large cassettes.

    It seems that EKAR is designed for the modern features like discs and thru axles. That may not be for everyone but it's the direction the larger market is going.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    142mm O.L.D.
    I believe Mr. Garro has called these “dummy axles”.
    Trod Harland, Physical Educator

    Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. — James Baldwin

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by thollandpe View Post
    I believe Mr. Garro has called these “dummy axles”.
    So you are at the top of the Stelvio, it snowing and cold, the tubeless sealant is too cold
    to seal. After putting in a tube.
    Your hands are frozen and you are trying to thread the thru axle back into place.
    And you're thinking why can't someone reinvent the q/r ?

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Does anyone think about these things - a chainline over 13 combinations scares me. The poor chain is gonna be choked somewhere, someplace. Add possible (!) frame misalignments and it's a perfect storm for friction and premature wear. I'm not a Luddite. I like new things and more options. This one though - I'll wait it out despite the fact that 142mm OLD keeps me out of the game.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    Does anyone think about these things - a chainline over 13 combinations scares me. The poor chain is gonna be choked somewhere, someplace. Add possible (!) frame misalignments and it's a perfect storm for friction and premature wear. I'm not a Luddite. I like new things and more options. This one though - I'll wait it out despite the fact that 142mm OLD keeps me out of the game.
    I was thinking about this issue this morning as I was chewing Cornflakes. It is a valid concern. Add a pair to short chainstays to the recipe, and the result will be mud cupcakes.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    Does anyone think about these things - a chainline over 13 combinations scares me. The poor chain is gonna be choked somewhere, someplace. Add possible (!) frame misalignments and it's a perfect storm for friction and premature wear. I'm not a Luddite. I like new things and more options. This one though - I'll wait it out despite the fact that 142mm OLD keeps me out of the game.
    Is it the number of combinations or the lateral range that matters? I always suspected that any 1x set-up runs into a chainline issue somewhere, but do you think the Ekar design is any worse than the Shimano and Sram analogues because it has more sprocket(s)? It sounds like the 13 sprockets require a freehub shell length similar to the other guys as well as to the 12-speed road gruppos?
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    Is it the number of combinations or the lateral range that matters? I always suspected that any 1x set-up runs into a chainline issue somewhere, but do you think the Ekar design is any worse than the Shimano and Sram analogues because it has more sprocket(s)? It sounds like the 13 sprockets require a freehub shell length similar to the other guys as well as to the 12-speed road gruppos?
    I think the number of sprockets is relevant only in that they're incrementally thinner and likely wear slightly quicker due to their having less material. A buddy with a 1x MTB setup has experienced premature wear.

    It would seem that the lateral width makes the difference here and in fact, one of the testers (and I think it was James Huang of Cyclingtips, but don't hold me to it) mentioned that in the most extreme low gear it did seem somewhat noisier, meaning more friction and therefore, logically, more wear.

    There are definitely compromises with everything and this will be no exception. Of note, most gravel bikes have slightly longer chainstays than traditional road bikes. I think the Specialized Diverge, for example, has a 42 cm stay length.

    I think a buyer of this group, and others like it, can expect to replace chains and cassettes more often than on a traditional paved road bike, maybe due to these issues, but also because the conditions are, by nature, not as clean.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    I think the number of sprockets is relevant only in that they're incrementally thinner and likely wear slightly quicker due to their having less material. A buddy with a 1x MTB setup has experienced premature wear.

    It would seem that the lateral width makes the difference here and in fact, one of the testers (and I think it was James Huang of Cyclingtips, but don't hold me to it) mentioned that in the most extreme low gear it did seem somewhat noisier, meaning more friction and therefore, logically, more wear.

    There are definitely compromises with everything and this will be no exception. Of note, most gravel bikes have slightly longer chainstays than traditional road bikes. I think the Specialized Diverge, for example, has a 42 cm stay length.

    I think a buyer of this group, and others like it, can expect to replace chains and cassettes more often than on a traditional paved road bike, maybe due to these issues, but also because the conditions are, by nature, not as clean.
    On your first point, I suspect that's the reason they chose stainless steel for the sprockets. Titanium would wear out in no time. I would expect the chain to have a short life although I'm sure it depends on what sort of riding one does.

    Yes, Huang did note that the drag is palatable in the lowest gear.

    Do you think the hub shell is longer than those of the competitors'?
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    Is it the number of combinations or the lateral range that matters? I always suspected that any 1x set-up runs into a chainline issue somewhere, but do you think the Ekar design is any worse than the Shimano and Sram analogues because it has more sprocket(s)? It sounds like the 13 sprockets require a freehub shell length similar to the other guys as well as to the 12-speed road gruppos?
    Lateral range. Coupled with frame misalignments as well as, as has been added, short-ish chain stays.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott G. View Post
    So you are at the top of the Stelvio, it snowing and cold, the tubeless sealant is too cold
    to seal. After putting in a tube.
    Your hands are frozen and you are trying to thread the thru axle back into place.
    And you're thinking why can't someone reinvent the q/r ?
    I had a much needed break a couple of weeks ago in Rhode Island (now I hear back on the NYS advisory list). My Sachs cross bike resided in the back of the Jeep with the front wheel off. Each day it took no more than 30 seconds to mount the front wheel with the QR and off I went. I was thinking how it would be a PITA to need a tool for that simple task.

    But I digress. Back to 13-speed.

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Rim brakes frames intended for dirt are a no go for the general market. There is no point in Campy offering this group for rim brake or cable brakes for that matter. They wouldn't sell any cable brake setups if they offered them because it doesn't square with the demand that exists in this market.
    Through axles are not difficult at all. Especially if there is a built in lever on them like the DT Swiss axles (the lever head can be repositioned). Would it be a problem in a race? I don't know and its not likely I'll ever do a race with support that provides wheels. If you do have to use a tool to install your wheel it literally takes maybe ten seconds longer than a front QR, because you have to unthread a QR to get past the lawyer lips anyways. Maybe 20 seconds longer to install a rear wheel.
    I've been running 1x on my gravel bike and MTBs for a couple years. No issues with wear I can see that would be attributable to chain angle. I have found on the gravel bike I wore out one cassette really fast in the 15t and 17t with the rest of the cassette being totally fine. With 1x you end up riding the same two cogs more often. The large cogs are so big that the wear is spread over many teeth so they last a very long time.
    Does anyone know what Campy's minimum CS length is for this group? It's possible/likely that it might be longer than their road groups- which is fine, because to create a frame with clearance for 45mm tires plus fenders you need long CSs anyhow.
    - Brad Comis

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    Default Re: New Campagnolo EKAR groupset unveiled today

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneK View Post
    I had a much needed break a couple of weeks ago in Rhode Island (now I hear back on the NYS advisory list). My Sachs cross bike resided in the back of the Jeep with the front wheel off. Each day it took no more than 30 seconds to mount the front wheel with the QR and off I went. I was thinking how it would be a PITA to need a tool for that simple task.

    But I digress. Back to 13-speed.
    I don't think through axle is all that slow. Disc brakes seem slow. I can't hit the slot first try to save my life. But once it is in then slam the axle in and spin. Clutch rear derailleurs seem slow, but I might be doing it wrong. Or I am weak.
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