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Thread: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

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    Default New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/25/201...es-everything/

    https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/a...ibility-52338/

    https://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/a...freehub-52337/

    The good news is it sounds like the freehub body standard should work with existing hubs once manufacturers start offering it. So that nice MTB wheelset you have should still be good with the new system.

    This is also interesting, a 'narrow range' specific hub

    There will also be a Wide Flange hub option made specifically for the 11-speed cassette that pushes the driveside flange out 4.7mm more than normal, taking up the space where that 51-tooth cog would have been. Basically it’s Boost hub spacing with Super Boost wheel stiffness thanks to more balanced spoke tension from side to side – but without room for the 12th cog.

    --BikeRumor link above
    I thought that 4.7mm number must be a typo - that's a metric sh*t ton of difference in driveside flange spacing for the same axle width hubs. But both BikeRadar and BikeRumor report the same number. For reference, the spacer you use to run a 10spd road cassette on an 11spd road freehub body is only 1.8mm.
    Last edited by dgaddis; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:37 AM.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    DT will have bodies out I am sure.
     

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Also option of 3mm shorter pedal spindles on 9100 XTR race pedals.
     

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by boots2000 View Post
    DT will have bodies out I am sure.
    Yeah, they partnered w/Shimano on this and will have the freehub bodies available shortly. Likely at the same time the group is available is my guess.

    And the fact that you can upgrade older DT hubs means it shouldn't be a problem with other hub types as well, once they license the design and start manufacturing them.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Interesting that Shimano is set to greatly scale back on any focus on selling complete wheels and stick with hubs alone. They always confounded me. Their wheels were always said to be good with some great tech embedded in them but despite Shimano being available in just about every bike ship on Earth their wheels, and especially the road variants, were always hard to find.
     

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Also noticing that they seem to have stepped away from Direct Mount RDs. It's an unusual groupset launch when the derr's are almost an afterthought. I wonder if this development means that DM might be an R9100 'one and done' type of thing.
     

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    I am not enthusiastic about the hub change


    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Suddenly everything is different again...
    Guy Washburn

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    I am not enthusiastic about the hub change


    - Garro.
    The new freehub/cog interface or the DT Swiss/King like internals?
     

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Something really confuses me, read this on pinkbike:

    "Hyperglide+ cassette: Shimano pioneered shifting ramps to keep the chain engaged with both cogs while shifting, but until today, those ramps only worked when shifting to the next larger cog. The clunking and clanking sounds that accompany each shift towards the ten-tooth cog will attest to that. Shimano's new Hyperglide+ cogs have ramps in both directions, so shifting to the next smaller cog is quicker, seamless, and should minimize interference with your butter smooth pedaling cadence."

    How can it be that Campy, SRAM, and Shimano have not done this until now? Is it really the case that none of these companies had modified the teeth to facilitate moving to smaller cogs? Does Dura-ace already have this feature? Is it just Shimano that is late to the party?
     

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by arik View Post
    Something really confuses me, read this on pinkbike:

    "Hyperglide+ cassette: Shimano pioneered shifting ramps to keep the chain engaged with both cogs while shifting, but until today, those ramps only worked when shifting to the next larger cog. The clunking and clanking sounds that accompany each shift towards the ten-tooth cog will attest to that. Shimano's new Hyperglide+ cogs have ramps in both directions, so shifting to the next smaller cog is quicker, seamless, and should minimize interference with your butter smooth pedaling cadence."

    How can it be that Campy, SRAM, and Shimano have not done this until now? Is it really the case that none of these companies had modified the teeth to facilitate moving to smaller cogs? Does Dura-ace already have this feature? Is it just Shimano that is late to the party?
    Shimano had it in the past during the 8 speed era, it was called "Interactive Glide".
    When everything got narrower for 9 speed they dropped it.

    I would say that all modern cassettes have some profiling to facilitate upshifting to
    smaller cogs, it's part of the tooth profile design. It just looks like Hyperglide Plus
    has taken it further.

    -g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    Interesting that Shimano is set to greatly scale back on any focus on selling complete wheels and stick with hubs alone. They always confounded me. Their wheels were always said to be good with some great tech embedded in them but despite Shimano being available in just about every bike ship on Earth their wheels, and especially the road variants, were always hard to find.
    I see the opposite - lots of Shimano road wheels but hardly any MTB wheels, and very few people buy their MTB wheels aftermarket.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    Interesting that Shimano is set to greatly scale back on any focus on selling complete wheels and stick with hubs alone. They always confounded me. Their wheels were always said to be good with some great tech embedded in them but despite Shimano being available in just about every bike ship on Earth their wheels, and especially the road variants, were always hard to find.
    There are so many configurations of wheels now, i can see why going to hubs make sense from an inventory standpoint.
    Otherwise they're going to do so many rim widths X wheel diameters X boost X standard, it's gotten out of control.
    Just hubs works, and pick a rim.

    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis View Post
    I see the opposite - lots of Shimano road wheels but hardly any MTB wheels, and very few people buy their MTB wheels aftermarket.
    all shimano wheels have rims that are too narrow.

    -g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by GrantM View Post
    all shimano wheels have rims that are too narrow.

    -g
    ESPECIALLY the MTB wheels.

    The problem with their hubs is the lack of adaptability. Most aftermarket hubs you can configure however you want, QR, bolt-on, thru-axle, thru-bolt, Shimano or SRAM freehub body. Shimano hubs, whatever you buy, is what it is, forever. And there is no thru-bolt option, and no SRAM XD option.

    With 'Boost' axles being the new standard that helps in some sense, at least the axles are all the same now.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Unless the brand has it's own wheels most MTB come stock with DT Swiss wheels. Add to that many of bike brands wheels use DT Swiss internals
    Last edited by sk_tle; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:27 PM.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by GrantM View Post
    Shimano had it in the past during the 8 speed era, it was called "Interactive Glide".
    When everything got narrower for 9 speed they dropped it.

    I would say that all modern cassettes have some profiling to facilitate upshifting to
    smaller cogs, it's part of the tooth profile design. It just looks like Hyperglide Plus
    has taken it further.

    -g
    from the looks of the cassette, its the largest of the teeth that actually have it, and not necessarily the smaller tooth count cogs that would have existed in the past.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    I am not enthusiastic about the hub change


    - Garro.
    At some point it had to change. The hyperglide 7-10sp freehub body has been used for more than 25years as it is. Thanks to the like of sunrace you are still able to use 12sp cassettes with old freehub (I'm doing it right now with sram eagle parts) albeit with a slightly smaller range. It is likely there will be solutions to maintain compatibility for a long time. And most MTB wheels in the market in the last 10 years have been sold with adaptable end caps / freehubs and will receive an option to swap the freehub to a compatible one.

    Besides most people don't upgrade their MTB drivetrains and wheels and just buy a new one.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:58 PM.
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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellafab View Post
    from the looks of the cassette, its the largest of the teeth that actually have it, and not necessarily the smaller tooth count cogs that would have existed in the past.
    Every cog is shaped in some way to allow the chain to un-shift to the next one.
    What Hyperglide + is specifically doing is placing a "gate" to leave more room
    to drop down to these especially large jumps. It's a factor of the size of these
    modern mega wide range cassettes that something like this is required.

    My comment responding to "why hasn't this been done before" was that well,
    it has. But not in exactly the same way because mountain bike cassettes were
    12-28 or 12-30 in that era. Ever since Shimano introduced the original HG
    chains and cassettes, the design has allowed the chain to directly roll from
    one cog to the next, without the chain disengaging from the cog. This latest
    version has evolved to adapt to the size of the jumps.

    -g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: New 12spd XTR and new freehub body standard

    So this was always going to happen. Iím surprised it took them 4 days.

    Any guesses as to when the road groupsets go 12spd?
     

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