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Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    I think this is nonsense. Your legs do not respond differently based on how stiff a frame is and the bike don't "accelerate" differently. It is the chain that is propelling the wheel and thus the bike, not the frame.

    The only significant difference between a stiff and a less stiff bike in term of performance is how the bike will react with irregularities in the surface. If the bike is too stiff and the tire not large enough or to inflated to damp the irregularities the bike will bounce much more and you'll tend to waste watts while the wheel isn't even propelling the bike. You'll also unconciously "fight" the bike a bit more to keep your line and waste energy in the process. If the bike is so stiff that you need to reduce too much the pressure to feel comfortable you'll get additionnal rolling resistance. If a bike is less stiff but allows you to use sane tire pressure to ride the same roads comfortably and with a tire that stay a maximum time on the ground you may be a tad faster. All these differences are objectively quite marginal.

    What you described in your post is purely subjective, related to perception and has no relation with actual, measurable performance. That said, I'm not saying you need to ride a bike stiffer than your Vamoots. My opinion is that in order to be fast for a long time you need to reach a minimum level of comfort. If that level is not reached you'll feel worse on the bike and won't be as fast. Cycling is as much a psychological sport as it is a physiological one. Additionnaly we don't have all the cursor in the same position regarding comfort, a bike may be suited to a rider and another with different characteristics may suit more another one. Even better there are trends. People who started cycling in the 70's don't have the same requirement as those who were born 20y ago and might feel that an older bike with a much less stiff frontend is too noodly and harder to handle.
    I am torn, because my rational side keeps telling me that the minute differences in frame deflection should be imperceptible to my legs; however, I am actually empirically faster on a bike that fits identically. Possibly, looking down and seeing the bead blasted finish and logo have a placebo effect and urge me to go faster, possibly it's because the bike is more efficient in soaking up road imperfections.

    Or (gasp), it's because Jan Heine is right: What is Planing? | Off The Beaten Path
    Drop bars not bombs.

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Ok, I will bite: do you still have the F8?

    If it is a better ride, and is still hanging in the rafters, then build it back up and move the lesser machine on to the next willing buyer.

    You like what you like.

    Cheers,

    Will

    P.S. you are not overweight. Your aero frame just makes you look fat....
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Agreed. If you like the F8 and still have it, build it back up. It's why I still ride ancient 585s.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    Agreed. If you like the F8 and still have it, build it back up. It's why I still ride ancient 585s.
    I think a decade or so ago it was more common for manufacturers to make different versions of the same frame in different stiffnesses. So Look had the 585 and the 585 Ultra, the 595 and the 595 Ultra, and Colnago has the C-50, Extreme Power and Extreme C (mama bear, papa bear and baby bear bikes...), etc. I had the chance to ride all of these iterations—and owned a few—bitd, and in each case I preferred the less stiff version of each model type. I don’t know whether it had to do with vibration transmission or what, but there was a very noticeable difference between versions. And while the 585 and 595 were two different models, I preferred the 585 to the 595, which in many ways was a stiffer version of the 585. The geometry was the same for each model type, and the same components were used.

    Beyond that, I have had other bikes that I felt were “too stiff” for me—my Moots RSL comes to mind. So count me among those who believe that a frame (and fork) can be too stiff for someone.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Jan Heine build a career on disputing that (apart from putting out some nice tires).Not saying he's right, but since objective data is not available he could be.Zero hypothesis : Jan Heine is right. Off we go!
    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    I think this is nonsense. Your legs do not respond differently based on how stiff a frame is and the bike don't "accelerate" differently. It is the chain that is propelling the wheel and thus the bike, not the frame.

    The only significant difference between a stiff and a less stiff bike in term of performance is how the bike will react with irregularities in the surface. If the bike is too stiff and the tire not large enough or to inflated to damp the irregularities the bike will bounce much more and you'll tend to waste watts while the wheel isn't even propelling the bike. You'll also unconciously "fight" the bike a bit more to keep your line and waste energy in the process. If the bike is so stiff that you need to reduce too much the pressure to feel comfortable you'll get additionnal rolling resistance. If a bike is less stiff but allows you to use sane tire pressure to ride the same roads comfortably and with a tire that stay a maximum time on the ground you may be a tad faster. All these differences are objectively quite marginal.

    What you described in your post is purely subjective, related to perception and has no relation with actual, measurable performance. That said, I'm not saying you need to ride a bike stiffer than your Vamoots. My opinion is that in order to be fast for a long time you need to reach a minimum level of comfort. If that level is not reached you'll feel worse on the bike and won't be as fast. Cycling is as much a psychological sport as it is a physiological one. Additionnaly we don't have all the cursor in the same position regarding comfort, a bike may be suited to a rider and another with different characteristics may suit more another one. Even better there are trends. People who started cycling in the 70's don't have the same requirement as those who were born 20y ago and might feel that an older bike with a much less stiff frontend is too noodly and harder to handle.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Well, I sold the F8... So there is that.

    WTB F8 59.5
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNerdyCyclist View Post
    I am torn, because my rational side keeps telling me that the minute differences in frame deflection should be imperceptible to my legs; however, I am actually empirically faster on a bike that fits identically. Possibly, looking down and seeing the bead blasted finish and logo have a placebo effect and urge me to go faster, possibly it's because the bike is more efficient in soaking up road imperfections.

    Or (gasp), it's because Jan Heine is right: What is Planing? | Off The Beaten Path


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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    stop thinking about stupid shit

    just ride the bike(s)

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    I can't really ride this bike as it is in France and I am in CA riding my Spectrum which is not too stiff
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DOOFUS View Post
    stop thinking about stupid shit

    just ride the bike(s)
    wisdom from the doof.
    lot of overthinking here.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    This site is dedicated to overthinking on bikes.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    This site is dedicated to overthinking on bikes.
    Exactly. It's what we do. I'm not too worried about it. I come here to forget about actual problems in the world (which is why I need to stay away from the OT section here......) and think about bikes for a while.
    La Cheeserie!

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
    I love my 2005 Time(s).
    All I have.
    I think that time period might have been the high point for racing bicycles....Time VXR/VXRS...Colnago C40/C50....DeRosa King....Since then the industry has explored quite a few rabbit holes WRT stiffness, lightness aero, etc.
    "Humilis humilibus...Inflectans arroganibus....."

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Chaba View Post
    I think that time period might have been the high point for racing bicycles....Time VXR/VXRS...Colnago C40/C50....DeRosa King....Since then the industry has explored quite a few rabbit holes WRT stiffness, lightness aero, etc.
    On the other hand you had to be blind to appreciate them. Too many logos and louds paintjobs in that era.
    --
    T h o m a s

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    This thread reminds me of a bit of wisdom I learned during my golfing career. Essentially, if the driver your wagging there at the end of your extended reach is ugly, to you, you'll never hit it well no matter how good it actually may be. I've used that same philosophy on bikes over the years. If it screams out, to you, to throw a leg over it, then buy and ride it.
    On another note, a bad day on a bike--body not right, an off day etc., can spoil the bike for me. I'm fortunate to have several, and I had a poor ride on a C-50 one day. It didn't roll well, I felt like I couldn't get it "on plane" and fought to keep up with the group. So, I pretty much hung it up for a couple of years. The few times I tried it over that time I got on it full of doubt, and got off it more sure then ever: this thing is slow. Then I put on a new set of wheels and voila, this bike is awesome!
    No question there is some important science to a good riding bike; but there is art in there as well.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bking View Post
    This thread reminds me of a bit of wisdom I learned during my golfing career. Essentially, if the driver your wagging there at the end of your extended reach is ugly, to you, you'll never hit it well no matter how good it actually may be. I've used that same philosophy on bikes over the years. If it screams out, to you, to throw a leg over it, then buy and ride it.
    On another note, a bad day on a bike--body not right, an off day etc., can spoil the bike for me. I'm fortunate to have several, and I had a poor ride on a C-50 one day. It didn't roll well, I felt like I couldn't get it "on plane" and fought to keep up with the group. So, I pretty much hung it up for a couple of years. The few times I tried it over that time I got on it full of doubt, and got off it more sure then ever: this thing is slow. Then I put on a new set of wheels and voila, this bike is awesome!
    No question there is some important science to a good riding bike; but there is art in there as well.
    I'm kinda the same - my relationship with a bike is entirely based on how it feels, and not anything specifically measurable. Its not even really about if it feels faster, but more to do with if it has good road feel and confident handling.

    I'm currently toying with the idea of replacing a perfectly decent bike, but this thread has made me think I should not sell the current one to help fund the next one, in case the result doesn't work out how I hope.
    Condor Italia RC / Ritchey Road Logic Disc / Tern Verge X11

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Hey is that a Pinarello F10 between your legs or are you just happy to see me?
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    here is my take and what i emailed Lionel:

    Hi Lionel:

    I'll chime in- I've just been really busy. The long and short of it is that a lot of folks prefer the F10 to the F8- because it is more of a "regular" bike. It's a bit lighter but isn't as stiff torsionally or as the F8. I think what you are feeling regarding an increase in stiffness is actually the opposite. If you wiggle the handlebars while straddling the bike- the F10 has noticeably more flex along the top tube.

    I've got a couple of clients who upgraded from the F8 to the F10 and most find the F10 more comfortable and a better bike for long rides. Honestly- the F10 X is more like an F8- the frame is built under tension and the carbon is pulled taut and that give the thing that kind of ride quality where it feels like the bike wants to spring and pounce while still being incredibly solid.

    The F10 to me- certainly isn't as dyanmic and quick feeling as the F8. It's a more planted bike and more traditional- I think this is because they're using the best technology regarding the carbon lay-up with the X series bikes.

    Talk soon!

    Craig


    The F8 was probably one of the most costly development projects in procycling history that didn't involve blood doping and sketchy doctors. Jaguar funded a lot of it and the whole thing was based upon trying to make the bike behave consistently regardless of drag conditions. The findings showed that attacking out of a small group, taking a turn at the front of a peloton, even descending solo or making short sudden accelerations when riding with no draft on a mountain- created very specific turbulences which affected the bike in different ways. All the weird shaping was done to counteract that- basically to try to make the bike feel the same regardless of turbulence while still maintaining a low drag silohouette. Ironically- a small tubed round frame actually does this the best- but they have a lot more drag than a modern aero frame.

    Since the Think2 Dogma- Pinarellos have built their top of the line frames under tension. This is why despite indentical geometry- the Dogma rides so much different than the lower end models. The bike frame is taut- which has historically allowed Pinarello to build a very light frame that feels like a heavier more planted bike. I'm not 100% sure- because I'm only privy to the development data up the the F8- but the new F10 doesn't look or ride like a bike frame that is built in this way. On the other hand, the F10 X-Light does. I wonder if Pinarello is simply using the higher modulas lighter carbon with the F10 but is saving the fancy build process stuff for the X-Light. Anyway- I like the F8 better too- most regular consumers don't. The F10 is lighter and feels more comfortable.
    bamboo, aluminum, wood.

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    here is my take and what i emailed Lionel:

    Hi Lionel:

    I'll chime in- I've just been really busy. The long and short of it is that a lot of folks prefer the F10 to the F8- because it is more of a "regular" bike. It's a bit lighter but isn't as stiff torsionally or as the F8. I think what you are feeling regarding an increase in stiffness is actually the opposite. If you wiggle the handlebars while straddling the bike- the F10 has noticeably more flex along the top tube.

    I've got a couple of clients who upgraded from the F8 to the F10 and most find the F10 more comfortable and a better bike for long rides. Honestly- the F10 X is more like an F8- the frame is built under tension and the carbon is pulled taut and that give the thing that kind of ride quality where it feels like the bike wants to spring and pounce while still being incredibly solid.

    The F10 to me- certainly isn't as dyanmic and quick feeling as the F8. It's a more planted bike and more traditional- I think this is because they're using the best technology regarding the carbon lay-up with the X series bikes.

    Talk soon!

    Craig


    The F8 was probably one of the most costly development projects in procycling history that didn't involve blood doping and sketchy doctors. Jaguar funded a lot of it and the whole thing was based upon trying to make the bike behave consistently regardless of drag conditions. The findings showed that attacking out of a small group, taking a turn at the front of a peloton, even descending solo or making short sudden accelerations when riding with no draft on a mountain- created very specific turbulences which affected the bike in different ways. All the weird shaping was done to counteract that- basically to try to make the bike feel the same regardless of turbulence while still maintaining a low drag silohouette. Ironically- a small tubed round frame actually does this the best- but they have a lot more drag than a modern aero frame.

    Since the Think2 Dogma- Pinarellos have built their top of the line frames under tension. This is why despite indentical geometry- the Dogma rides so much different than the lower end models. The bike frame is taut- which has historically allowed Pinarello to build a very light frame that feels like a heavier more planted bike. I'm not 100% sure- because I'm only privy to the development data up the the F8- but the new F10 doesn't look or ride like a bike frame that is built in this way. On the other hand, the F10 X-Light does. I wonder if Pinarello is simply using the higher modulas lighter carbon with the F10 but is saving the fancy build process stuff for the X-Light. Anyway- I like the F8 better too- most regular consumers don't. The F10 is lighter and feels more comfortable.
    Cool. That´s what i want to read on cycling forums.
    I came here for the socks.

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    here is my take and what i emailed Lionel:

    Hi Lionel:

    I'll chime in- I've just been really busy. The long and short of it is that a lot of folks prefer the F10 to the F8- because it is more of a "regular" bike. It's a bit lighter but isn't as stiff torsionally or as the F8. I think what you are feeling regarding an increase in stiffness is actually the opposite. If you wiggle the handlebars while straddling the bike- the F10 has noticeably more flex along the top tube.

    I've got a couple of clients who upgraded from the F8 to the F10 and most find the F10 more comfortable and a better bike for long rides. Honestly- the F10 X is more like an F8- the frame is built under tension and the carbon is pulled taut and that give the thing that kind of ride quality where it feels like the bike wants to spring and pounce while still being incredibly solid.

    The F10 to me- certainly isn't as dyanmic and quick feeling as the F8. It's a more planted bike and more traditional- I think this is because they're using the best technology regarding the carbon lay-up with the X series bikes.

    Talk soon!

    Craig


    The F8 was probably one of the most costly development projects in procycling history that didn't involve blood doping and sketchy doctors. Jaguar funded a lot of it and the whole thing was based upon trying to make the bike behave consistently regardless of drag conditions. The findings showed that attacking out of a small group, taking a turn at the front of a peloton, even descending solo or making short sudden accelerations when riding with no draft on a mountain- created very specific turbulences which affected the bike in different ways. All the weird shaping was done to counteract that- basically to try to make the bike feel the same regardless of turbulence while still maintaining a low drag silohouette. Ironically- a small tubed round frame actually does this the best- but they have a lot more drag than a modern aero frame.

    Since the Think2 Dogma- Pinarellos have built their top of the line frames under tension. This is why despite indentical geometry- the Dogma rides so much different than the lower end models. The bike frame is taut- which has historically allowed Pinarello to build a very light frame that feels like a heavier more planted bike. I'm not 100% sure- because I'm only privy to the development data up the the F8- but the new F10 doesn't look or ride like a bike frame that is built in this way. On the other hand, the F10 X-Light does. I wonder if Pinarello is simply using the higher modulas lighter carbon with the F10 but is saving the fancy build process stuff for the X-Light. Anyway- I like the F8 better too- most regular consumers don't. The F10 is lighter and feels more comfortable.
    Thank you for that, very useful information. I wish I had talked to you before buying the F10 and selling the F8 :)
     

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