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Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    The manufacturers 'arms race' that is evident at the high end of carbon race bikes is similar to what we have seen with road cars. For bikes a key measurable statistic used is percentage of extra stiffness achieved compared to the previous iteration, for road cars it might be how many seconds faster it can lap the Nordschleife (Nurburgring). What we often end up with in both cases is a manufacturer's boast of a parameter that you are not really going to benefit from, most of the time in the real world - i.e. when going for a training ride, or everyday driving. This is often at the expenses of the general ride quality, which is something you can actually appreciate every second of your drive/ride.
    Condor Italia RC / Mason Resolution Disc / Tern Verge X11

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    I love my 2005 Time(s).
    All I have.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    The F10 is so stiff it drove Gianni Moscon to take up something less punishing - boxing.

    The F10 is so stiff it bounced Chris Froome into second place.

    The F10 is so stiff Geraint Thomas thought he'd hit another telephone pole.

    Stop me before I kill again....
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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNerdyCyclist View Post
    This whole thread is amazing.

    I'm holding out for the F11.
    F/8 and be there.

    my name is Matt

    INSTA

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    Smile Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    You're all looking at the weight issue the wrong way (imo).

    The weight gain Lionel has experienced is strategic.

    The extra 5kgs will assist in belting down the ski slopes in next year's version of that insane French mountain bike downhill race (see the rad video thread).

    All we need now are multiple pages of help me buy a downhill mountain bike thread...
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    it's not as nice a bike. the f8s rode better than the f10s.
    Damn !
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9tubes View Post
    There are more variables than the frame. Are you riding different wheels? Tires? Tubes? Pressures? I've always wondered how much of our perception of different frames was actually the wheels/tubes/tires. 100g on wheels makes for a pretty significant difference in spin-up and in handling. Some wheels are noisy, some are quiet, and people have subjective expectations of what is supposed to sound fast. 5lbs of pressure can make a lot of difference in perceived comfort and most pumps are very inaccurate. Or maybe you just got a new pump and inadvertently have changed pressures. I was surprised when I went to eTap that my new Hampsten turned quicker than my other Hampsten. It could be some geometry fairy dust, or it could be that there are two fewer cables resisting the turn of the bars.

    OTOH, if you haven't been riding for a while it's probably just the legs. You could try EPO, Salbutemol or Tramadol, they seem to be popular.

    I hear that Spinal Tap will be the official spokespeople for the next model, so you could wait for that.
    This is the exact same setup as my F8, everything was transferred from the F8 I just changed the F/F. This is why I think this is a very good comparaison. Rode the F8 the previous day, changed everything and rode the F10 the next day.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogrange View Post
    My opinion is that this is a plausible hypothesis. I have a bike that is too stiff for me, it is a labor to ride it fast, very noticeable, IMHO, pedaling it harder makes my legs tired without the bike going any faster. I bought an F8 on your recommendation and it is very stiff, yet I can just get it spun up with a good feel and it does not have that "pedaling against a brick wall" feeling that the too stiff bike has, IMHO. Yet, the F8 is on the edge of that feeling, I think, so any stiffer and I bet it wouldn't pedal as nicely. All, IMHO.
    Right, this is sort of what I am thinking as well.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    What Trevor said. I'm too out of shape and at least 10kg too heavy. I'm pretty sure you had a lot of expectations on the new bike, probably too much.
    This is not it. I was the same "out of shape" before I switched the frame. My expectations were actually fairly minimal, I was expecting pretty much the same as the F8 maybe slightly better, it turns out it is slightly worse.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    I should probably take this F10 for a spin to confirm.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel View Post
    Right, this is sort of what I am thinking as well.
    Didnt you also not like your peg? I that too stiff too.

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by joosttx View Post
    Didnt you also not like your peg? I that too stiff too.
    Correct but the Peg was significantly different than other bikes I had, massive steel tubes, 2.1kg frame only.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk View Post
    it's not as nice a bike. the f8s rode better than the f10s.
    BTW Craig, if you care to elaborate or speculate on why I am interested to hear it. Thanks.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Have you thought about a Ti bike?
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by defspace View Post
    Have you thought about a Ti bike?
    This is a good one.
     

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogrange View Post
    My opinion is that this is a plausible hypothesis. I have a bike that is too stiff for me, it is a labor to ride it fast, very noticeable, IMHO, pedaling it harder makes my legs tired without the bike going any faster. I bought an F8 on your recommendation and it is very stiff, yet I can just get it spun up with a good feel and it does not have that "pedaling against a brick wall" feeling that the too stiff bike has, IMHO. Yet, the F8 is on the edge of that feeling, I think, so any stiffer and I bet it wouldn't pedal as nicely. All, IMHO.
    As much as I want to say this is all hogwash, I have to admit there is probably truth to this idea. My new Vamoots is less stiff than the bike from which its Zipp FC303's and Red group come from, but the Moots lets me hold onto wheels better on the fast Tuesday night club rides. The difference in stiffness isn't huge, just enough to be noticeable, but the difference in acceleration between the two frames definitely is.
    Drop bars not bombs.

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNerdyCyclist View Post
    As much as I want to say this is all hogwash, I have to admit there is probably truth to this idea. My new Vamoots is less stiff than the bike from which its Zipp FC303's and Red group come from, but the Moots lets me hold onto wheels better on the fast Tuesday night club rides. The difference in stiffness isn't huge, just enough to be noticeable, but the difference in acceleration between the two frames definitely is.
    How's the weight and geometry compare?
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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis View Post
    How's the weight and geometry compare?
    The previous frame was an older Dean Ti, and probably weighs a tiny bit more than the Moots but the difference is small (going by the hefting in hand during the build - very accurate). The geometry of the Dean is more relaxed, with a slacker HT and longer chainstays - ~0.5 degree and ~1cm, respectively. That said, the Dean is still a quick bike, it holds speed well and set PR's regularly, especially on flat stretches of road. The Moots' main advantage is in closing gaps or jumping into breaks where a quick surge of acceleration is needed. It's hard to explain but it feels like I can just feel the BB flex a tiny bit, which gets me a tiny bit more out of the bottom of the pedal stroke relative to the Dean.
    Drop bars not bombs.

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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNerdyCyclist View Post
    As much as I want to say this is all hogwash, I have to admit there is probably truth to this idea. My new Vamoots is less stiff than the bike from which its Zipp FC303's and Red group come from, but the Moots lets me hold onto wheels better on the fast Tuesday night club rides. The difference in stiffness isn't huge, just enough to be noticeable, but the difference in acceleration between the two frames definitely is.
    I think this is nonsense. Your legs do not respond differently based on how stiff a frame is and the bike don't "accelerate" differently. It is the chain that is propelling the wheel and thus the bike, not the frame.

    The only significant difference between a stiff and a less stiff bike in term of performance is how the bike will react with irregularities in the surface. If the bike is too stiff and the tire not large enough or to inflated to damp the irregularities the bike will bounce much more and you'll tend to waste watts while the wheel isn't even propelling the bike. You'll also unconciously "fight" the bike a bit more to keep your line and waste energy in the process. If the bike is so stiff that you need to reduce too much the pressure to feel comfortable you'll get additionnal rolling resistance. If a bike is less stiff but allows you to use sane tire pressure to ride the same roads comfortably and with a tire that stay a maximum time on the ground you may be a tad faster. All these differences are objectively quite marginal.

    What you described in your post is purely subjective, related to perception and has no relation with actual, measurable performance. That said, I'm not saying you need to ride a bike stiffer than your Vamoots. My opinion is that in order to be fast for a long time you need to reach a minimum level of comfort. If that level is not reached you'll feel worse on the bike and won't be as fast. Cycling is as much a psychological sport as it is a physiological one. Additionnaly we don't have all the cursor in the same position regarding comfort, a bike may be suited to a rider and another with different characteristics may suit more another one. Even better there are trends. People who started cycling in the 70's don't have the same requirement as those who were born 20y ago and might feel that an older bike with a much less stiff frontend is too noodly and harder to handle.
    Last edited by sk_tle; 07-24-2018 at 04:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Is my F10 too stiff ?

    The F10 is so stiff, Chuck Norris won't even ride one.

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    The F10 is so stiff it drove Gianni Moscon to take up something less punishing - boxing.

    The F10 is so stiff it bounced Chris Froome into second place.

    The F10 is so stiff Geraint Thomas thought he'd hit another telephone pole.

    Stop me before I kill again....
    Bill Fernance
    Bicycle Shop Owner
    Part Time Framebuilder
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