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Thread: I'm still a cup an cone fan

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    Default I'm still a cup an cone fan

    I have several models of Campag cup and cone bearing hubs, from the Record hub that's still in production to older models with a grease port in the body. I still think they spin noticeably better than any modern sealed steel bearing hubs.

    So, yeah, call me a Luddite.

    (Or, does it just seem that way because they are all laced to heavier rims with 32 or 36 spokes?)
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    I'm on Dura Ace C-24's a similar design but instead of ceramic bearings which I think doesn't provide any value here they use good quality steel ones. I agree that cup and cone works. Something about my Dura Ace wheels that I don't get out of my Mavic wheels that are on my other two bikes. -Mike G
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    The black Campagnolo hubs, provided they are set up right, stay clean internally for way longer than they should. Not sure how they do it. Just wish they made them in 28H.
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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    The black Campagnolo hubs, provided they are set up right, stay clean internally for way longer than they should. Not sure how they do it. Just wish they made them in 28H.
    I agree. They have been the "winter wheels" for one bike (and now year-round after I sold the summer wheels) and require so little maintenance.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Considering that every single one of the road wheels I still own has a campy hub on it I would be a fan as well.

    On the MTB I have I9 hubs. The other day I rode with Houston and when we were both coasting (he has the same hub) we barely could hear each other :)
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Sweet cup and cone... why Shimano can't bear to sell 24 and 28H 105 hubs is beyond me... would sell like hotcakes...

    Reminds me of a while back when my friend and I compared how long our rear wheels would spin for on the trainer/workstand after getting them up to a specific speed. Obviously plenty of factors involved but the difference was quite striking, over a minute IIRC. He had Easton wheels with cartridge bearings and mine were Ultegra. Of course my rims were balanced with some lead tape but he didn't know that... =)
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Ummmmmmm.......cup and cone.
    Attached Images Attached Images
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Regarding hubs, Campy are okay. They put up a somewhat milquetoast fight when subjected to winter's worst. I don't pamper my winter wheels, and probably don't overhaul them enough. I usually have to bin a pair every two years or so when they are beyond help. My favorite hubsets were the 550, 556, 501 and 577 models from Mavic. They provided years of service despite my best to murder them. I loved building TT wheels with them because their smoothness was beyond baby-ass.
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Riding today I was thinking 'Cup and Cone' would be a good name for a coffee shop in Amsterdam.
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    I had a set of wheels with DA 7700 hubs that were very fast...at the hub. Open Pro rims I think. Nothing special climbing or on flats, but they *took off* when pointed downhill.

    Now I have a few sets of wheels that are fast due to low rotating weight. A 1.5lb reduction in rotating weight matters a lot more, but fails to produce the same sensations over time.
    "As an homage to the EPOdays of yore- I'd find the world's last remaining pair of 40cm ergonomic drop bars.....i think everyone who ever liked those handlebars in that shape and in that width is either dead of a drug overdose, works in the Schaerbeek mattress factory now and weighs 300 pounds or is Dr. Davey Bruylandts...who for all I know is doing both of those things." - Jerk

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Quote Originally Posted by nahtnoj View Post
    I had a set of wheels with DA 7700 hubs that were very fast...at the hub. Open Pro rims I think. Nothing special climbing or on flats, but they *took off* when pointed downhill.

    Now I have a few sets of wheels that are fast due to low rotating weight. A 1.5lb reduction in rotating weight matters a lot more, but fails to produce the same sensations over time.
    If you like those 7700 hubs, they made em down to 24h

    M
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Quote Originally Posted by nahtnoj View Post
    I had a set of wheels with DA 7700 hubs that were very fast...at the hub. Open Pro rims I think. Nothing special climbing or on flats, but they *took off* when pointed downhill.

    Now I have a few sets of wheels that are fast due to low rotating weight. A 1.5lb reduction in rotating weight matters a lot more, but fails to produce the same sensations over time.
    I always win when coasting downhill with a pair of Campag cup and cones! :)
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    C&C on the BB FTW! loving how my cranks spin. A pitted loose ball bottom bracket spins more nicely than a new modern unit.
    Jeff Hazeltine

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Quote Originally Posted by classtimesailer View Post
    C&C on the BB FTW! loving how my cranks spin. A pitted loose ball bottom bracket spins more nicely than a new modern unit.
    AGREED! Could easily be done in an external BB format too! Just like how threadless external headsets work, tighten the NDS crankarm down like ya do with the stem, would be easy to service and stainless steel loose bearings would probably be smoother than a ceramic sealed one. Ooo, and throw in a grease port! =)
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Cup and cone are easy to maintain and somehow keep clean far longer than they ever should -- how old Nuovo Record hubs lasted like they did is beyond me.

    Spinning is another issue. How they spin in the hand is no real indication of how they spin when riding. Grease has the characteristic of liquefying when under pressure, which means it turns to oil at the junction between cup and cone, whether within a sealed bearing unit or a disassemblable cup-and-cone design. That's part of what grease does -- the thickness is just to keep it in place and help keep water another contaminants out. Also, modern sealed bearings can be customized far beyond what cup-and-cone designs can offer. Phil Wood offered (and may still offer) low-friction sealed bearing units that would just spin and spin, because they used a very low viscosity grease. Great for track or specialty events, not good for daily use. So I wouldn't write off sealed bearing units. They are amazingly good and the precision is far beyond what cup-and-cone can accomplish.
    Lane DeCamp

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    I have Campagnolo wheels and can't praise them enough. Adjusting the bearings with the wheels on the bike makes them worth the price of admission. While the cup and cone bearings seem to last forever, the cartridge bearings in the freehub body seem to last a year and then get really crunchy. I'm not heavy, overly powerful, nor do I ride in the rain often. Anyone else replace the freehub body every year?
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    I understand how *in theory* a cartridge bearing can be made to higher tolerances than a quality cup and cone design. However, the *reality* is that most companies use cheap, generic Chinese cartridges in their components. The bean counters at the company who made that $2000 pair of wheels that you bought made the decision that $1 wholesale/cartridge from SKF was too much to spend and opted for the $0.10 Chinese generic.
    The old Campagnolo Record hubs (the ones sometimes called Nuovo Record) were better sealed than most "sealed bearing' hubs. The dust cap-axle tolerance was tight and acted as a labyrinth seal. If you packed them with plenty of grease at a servicing, this was additional protection....and the materials of the cups and cones were very hard and durable...An almost forgotten feature of the old Campagnolo bottom brackets and pedals was that the cup walls-where the axles passed through-were rifled so that they would expel contaminants as the axle spun during operation.
    Bikes have improved in a lot of ways....bearing quality is generally not one of them, IMHO...
    "Certainly I would have been dropped had it not been for my hydraulic disc brakes....."

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Quote Originally Posted by El Chaba View Post
    I understand how *in theory* a cartridge bearing can be made to higher tolerances than a quality cup and cone design. However, the *reality* is that most companies use cheap, generic Chinese cartridges in their components. The bean counters at the company who made that $2000 pair of wheels that you bought made the decision that $1 wholesale/cartridge from SKF was too much to spend and opted for the $0.10 Chinese generic.
    The old Campagnolo Record hubs (the ones sometimes called Nuovo Record) were better sealed than most "sealed bearing' hubs. The dust cap-axle tolerance was tight and acted as a labyrinth seal. If you packed them with plenty of grease at a servicing, this was additional protection....and the materials of the cups and cones were very hard and durable...An almost forgotten feature of the old Campagnolo bottom brackets and pedals was that the cup walls-where the axles passed through-were rifled so that they would expel contaminants as the axle spun during operation.
    Bikes have improved in a lot of ways....bearing quality is generally not one of them, IMHO...
    I believe it was the race covers that had the rifling -- the chrome pieces that pushed in to cover the open races. I talked to many a Campy mechanic who thought they didn't actually do anything except expel grease which then left channels for water to enter.

    As for sealed bearings, if a hub manufacturer is cutting corners he's going to do it with ball and cone bearings as well. Fact is, it takes more money to machine and install a free ball and cone setup than to install a sealed bearing. The few who still have those (such as Dura Ace 7600 track hubs, Campagnolo Record, Shimano Dura Ace) have spent decent money on them. Where those brands have sealed bearings, such as in Dura Ace bottom brackets, the quality is also apparent. Cheap bearings are always cheap bearings, regardless of the design, and good components last really well. That's not the way to judge sealed bearing units as a class.
    Lane DeCamp

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    My old bikeshop in Holland had in the yearly catalog pictures of the bearing cups under a magnifier of Campy- Dura ace- and some others.
    IIRC the hardness was listed too.
    None of them came close to the quality of the Campy cups.
     

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    Default Re: I'm still a cup an cone fan

    Quote Originally Posted by rabo View Post
    My old bikeshop in Holland had in the yearly catalog pictures of the bearing cups under a magnifier of Campy- Dura ace- and some others.
    IIRC the hardness was listed too.
    None of them came close to the quality of the Campy cups.
    I remember seeing something like that back in the day. I would put money on those old Campy hubs remaining at the head of the class in regards to the current iteration.
     

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