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Thread: Give me lugs or give me death.

  1. #21
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    Default sorry for the rehash but

    Are not lugged frames generally constructed with steel alloys that do not tolerate well the higher temps associated with welding (tig) thus they are brazed at low temps whereas tig welded frames (853) tend to actually gain strength at the weld. This difference in the steel and buttings could contribute to the perceived difference? Hey, I'm only regurgitating what far more knowledgeable folks than I have stated, hope I got it right.
    no matter where ya go...there you are

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by flick View Post
    Are not lugged frames generally constructed with steel alloys that do not tolerate well the higher temps associated with welding (tig) thus they are brazed at low temps whereas tig welded frames (853) tend to actually gain strength at the weld. This difference in the steel and buttings could contribute to the perceived difference? Hey, I'm only regurgitating what far more knowledgeable folks than I have stated, hope I got it right.
    forget the stats and the jargon atmo. lugs are part of a joining process. if you
    need them in yours, they serve a purpose. once the assembly is complete, they
    do nothing and allow you to feel nothing - unless it's visceral atmo.
     

  3. #23
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    Default Beating a dead horse?

    Maybe but it seems there is merit in discussing why Coloclimber liked his LOOK 585 and 595 (lugged) and not his 586 (monocoque). Same manufacturer, same geometry. Not the first time its been said that lugged carbon frames have a different feel than mono, surely. And as to the old world mojo of lugs having a placebo effect... steel, sure. But who pines for the beauty of carbon lugs?
    "In the old days when people invented a new function they had something useful in mind."

    ~Henri Poincare

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithNYC View Post
    Maybe but it seems there is merit in discussing why Coloclimber liked his LOOK 585 and 595 (lugged) and not his 586 (monocoque). Same manufacturer, same geometry. Not the first time its been said that lugged carbon frames have a different feel than mono, surely. And as to the old world mojo of lugs having a placebo effect... steel, sure. But who pines for the beauty of carbon lugs?
    Carbon is a whole other animal. It's the only material a bike is built with that you can have a true monocoque. You have continuous material going throughout the frame so the feel of the bike can be significantly different. The other problem comparing carbon bikes is that even if the dimensions look the same, the layup of the material can drastically change the ride of the bike.

    So, with carbon bikes, the construction method can make a difference, but I don't think it's as big a deal as how the carbon is laid up (or the carbon used).

    With metal bikes, you don't have the same variables.

    -Eric
     

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott View Post
    Carbon is a whole other animal. It's the only material a bike is built with that you can have a true monocoque. You have continuous material going throughout the frame so the feel of the bike can be significantly different. The other problem comparing carbon bikes is that even if the dimensions look the same, the layup of the material can drastically change the ride of the bike.

    So, with carbon bikes, the construction method can make a difference, but I don't think it's as big a deal as how the carbon is laid up (or the carbon used).

    With metal bikes, you don't have the same variables.

    -Eric
    But you could: some of the motorcycle manufacturers are making some fairly intricate and interesting parts using a controlled fill die-casting technique. Imagine a die-cast magnesium frame!
    --
    Davy

    P.S. Of course, the tooling costs would be, um, kind of pricey...
    pwned - pegorettis will never ever die

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by flick View Post
    Are not lugged frames generally constructed with steel alloys that do not tolerate well the higher temps associated with welding (tig) thus they are brazed at low temps whereas tig welded frames (853) tend to actually gain strength at the weld. This difference in the steel and buttings could contribute to the perceived difference? Hey, I'm only regurgitating what far more knowledgeable folks than I have stated, hope I got it right.
    853 can be brass brazed and gain stength too but the stiffness does not change. Acutally 853 can be silver brazed too but that's not hot enough to kick off the air hardening process.

    There's plenty of good reasons to pick lugs but changing/enhancing the ride in any meaningful way isn't one of them.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimi View Post
    mmm.... lugged ti



    jimi
    Nice!!! I want one! That and a Zank MAX. Just gotta hit the lottery... :)
     

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by davyt View Post
    Imagine a die-cast magnesium frame!
    --
    here you go!
     

  9. #29
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    coloclimber has a point. lugged frame construction, at least as oppossed to carbon monocoque construction, allows a manufacturer to build a bike in more sizes, vary tube diameters and generally dial in the ride a bit better on all the sizes of bikes. if anything, it shows a commitment to offering a product that works throughout the sizes offered.

    it also allows the carbon manufacturer an additional level of control over the product. each 'piece" can be individually inspected and determined to be right before it is used. one can't really do this with offshore built monocoque frames at least before the container is delivered.



    jerk
     

  10. #30
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    Like these offerings from Ernesto??






    Lugged carbon certainly has its advantages in my book.

    Maybe the lugged is better concept in my mind doesnt accurately apply cross materials. The Tig welded Bianchi Boron steel was a very disappointing ride for me. It was a law school graduation present I was dreaming about for years. Back when I got it, I was looking for a modern steel Celeste version of the lugged SL Bianchi I raced as a junior. No dice.
     

  11. #31
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    I think there has to be a difference between a carbon monocoque that is laid up a certain way, molded and compressed to a uniform pressure and a lugged construction that mixes main tubes at one pressure, headtube lug at another pressure, BB at yet a different pressure and so on.

    Whether that is discernable, I don't know.
     

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitpunch View Post
    here you go!
    or these http://www.empire-cycles.com/index.html

    Those brits love to cast.


    These are aluminum though...
    mickey.denoncourt
    Product Manager- Commonwealth Cycles

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazza View Post
    riding a bike is an emotional experience
    if not, then riding is just transport

    For some of us, lugs add to the emotion.


    Cheers from an emotional Dazza
    Pizazzafukkinlutely. DLM knocks another one outta the park--er wait do they do that down there? What's a big offensive play in Cricket? Dang, now I have to go study.

    I mean I've played Cricket, but it was with three darts and a boars hair board attached to the wall. That team thing is out-of-doors and different.http://www.cricket-rules.com/

    What was the subbjeckt?

    Lugs-yeah, the mass-production lugs of "a while back" don't add much to the emotion, but they are lugs. A hand fitted lug, no matter how plain, has more pizazz. Carve 'em up, polish, or go total Columbine on a set and they can make a heart pitter patter.

    I can look at a brazed or tigged joint and feel joy a few times ...a well-executed lug evokes emotion _every_ time

    --for the emotional rider.

    I ride for emotion. Thanks Dazza.:cheers:

    atwo.






  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitpunch View Post
    here you go!
    <Picture of a scrap heap>
    There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know.
    Ambrose Bierce
    --
    Davy

    P.S. When looking for more info on these, I mostly got references to some guy in Montana :) but I eventually found this: Kirk Precision
    pwned - pegorettis will never ever die

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergott View Post
    Carbon is a whole other animal. It's the only material a bike is built with that you can have a true monocoque. You have continuous material going throughout the frame so the feel of the bike can be significantly different. The other problem comparing carbon bikes is that even if the dimensions look the same, the layup of the material can drastically change the ride of the bike.

    So, with carbon bikes, the construction method can make a difference, but I don't think it's as big a deal as how the carbon is laid up (or the carbon used).

    With metal bikes, you don't have the same variables.

    -Eric
    Agreed
    and I would like to add
    the carbon lay up is affected by the skill, desire, knowledge of the person doing the job in the factory
    the way they should
    to the template/standard they are supposed to.
    Pretty first layer and good paint hides a lot.
     

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by davyt View Post
    But you could: some of the motorcycle manufacturers are making some fairly intricate and interesting parts using a controlled fill die-casting technique. Imagine a die-cast magnesium frame!
    --
    Davy

    P.S. Of course, the tooling costs would be, um, kind of pricey...

    http://www.firstflightbikes.com/KirkPrecision.html

    back then, they were terrible

    Cheers Dazza
     

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by coloclimber View Post
    I am looking for the common denominator and think its a bit crazy, but it almost makes sense, that it is the lugs.

    I havent ridden enough lugged bikes (other than those listed) to really tell or have one I didnt like. I am quite sure there is a lot more into a great riding frame than just the method of joining the tubes but is there magic in lugs?
    There is beauty in lugs. These days, since mass produced bikes no longer are made this way, there's also a degree of hand craftsmanship that wasn't always present years ago. There's also likely to be a more traditional frame design, not only in appearance but also geometry. And of course, there's the material - a lugged frame is almost (not entirely) always steel.
     

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