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Thread: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

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    Default Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Archive-URL: http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.as...11006.1978.eml
    Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 21:42:38 -0700
    From: Jan Heine <heine94(AT)earthlink.net>
    Subject: [BOB] BQ Summer, and reviews (maybe pack riding is in order?)

    >Have things really changed that much in 50 years? Bikes look
    >different but human anatomy is the same.
    >
    >http://www.narrativerooms.com/1950coppi.jpg
    >

    I have to laugh, because Coppi as stretched out than the modern
    racer, yet his bars are much higher. Clearly, there is more to bike
    fit than how high your bars are.

    By the way, my position on the Pegoretti was like Coppi's... I wish I
    had Coppi's power. Perhaps he could make the Pegoretti move?

    Jan Heine
    Editor
    Bicycle Quarterly
    2116 Western Ave.
    Seattle WA 98121
    Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page
    --

    _______________________________________________
    Internet-bob mailing list
    Internet-bob(AT)bikelist.org
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    given that the contact points of the two bicycles appear to be in different positions relative to the wheels (thus creating different weight distribution), how are the positions the same?

    more comments from Heine in other posts. most of them continue to rationalize the sizing errors. meh.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Ive followed the ibob discussion for several days and I've found the thinly veiled condescension towards Pegoretti pretty sad. I think Jan's lack of character is showing. Dario has handled himself professionaly, which can't be said of Heine.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    It seems to me that he is a perfect example of epistemic closure; nothing that doesn't match with his current knowledge set can be true.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    A serotta/ibob/vsalon (?) member posted this on his blog:

    Bike Fit from Coppi to Contador

    The flash animation clearly shows the difference in wheel position between the two eras.

    A builder question: how has wheelbase and weight distribution changed over the years? I assume geometries have been optimized for a given weight distribution?

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Doof posted (liberated) material that could hold court for a good discussion. That's cool....however

    Michael, thanks for good input....the rest of you knuckleheads pls. don't drag this thru the dirt.

    Respectfully, Oligarchista Too Tall

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Wow, thanks for the link to those, Mr Doofus.

    This one made me throw up in my mouth a little:

    http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.as...11006.1931.eml

    I wish Jan had been as plainspoken over here, but it seems he changes the story of his intent to suit the audience. In sum, it all reads as a narcissistic and contemptuous hit on Dario's work, which is unfortunate, and more than a little sad to see.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    I don't really care about the setup of the Pegoretti in the article nor anyone's preferences for rando vs racing bikes and 'French fit', modern fit, et al. I've ridden a few bikes and found that some didn't work for me, including some well regarded ones. And I take most reviews, (bikes, movies, music, restaurants, etc) with a grain of salt as well as considering the source.

    But this quote, "Overall, the appeal of the Pegoretti probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual bike.", I found insulting and disrespectful, especially to the person that loaned their personal bike for the review.

    I own two Pegorettis. I liked the first enough to purchase a second. Reputation and the positive opinions of other owners may have influenced the first purchase (like most things), but the second was based on my own experience.

    You could substitute 'Rivendell', 'Bridgestone' or 'Rene Herse' for Pegoretti in that quote and have an equally valid (or invalid) statement.

    I won't be renewing my subscription to BQ.

    - Taz

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    You know, one point that's made in the link posted by Roman has intrigued me.

    What differentiates a Pegoretti from a Caad 9 Cannondale?

    Is the geometry different? Is the tubing somehow shaped differently to lend better ride characteristics? The two main differences I see are the paint job and that the builder has a tremendous reputation (well earned). I forgot about the extended head tube. And BLE's chainstays. Don't get me wrong, I know Dario's work in steel, forming tubes, etc. deserves much respect. And he certainly has a portfolio of satisfied riders that is pretty long.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    see new post
    Last edited by jsrieck; 06-30-2010 at 03:34 PM. Reason: I didn't want to get lost in the shuffle.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    You know, one point that's made in the link posted by Roman has intrigued me.

    What differentiates a Pegoretti from a Caad 9 Cannondale?

    Is the geometry different? Is the tubing somehow shaped differently to lend better ride characteristics? The two main differences I see are the paint job and that the builder has a tremendous reputation (well earned). I forgot about the extended head tube. And BLE's chainstays. Don't get me wrong, I know Dario's work in steel, forming tubes, etc. deserves much respect. And he certainly has a portfolio of satisfied riders that is pretty long.
    The Geometry is marginally different, aslightly different seat and head angle. As you said the Headtube and massive chainstays. I personally looked at a caad picture VS a Love #3 and don't see the similarity that much.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    I can't comment on the differences between a Love #3 and a CAAD9, since I've never ridden a CAAD9. But I hear that lots of riders like them a lot.

    However, I will respond to Mr. Heine's quoted comment, "However, even so, none of the commenters on Velocipede Salon were able to elucidate why a Pegoretti is supposed to be such a great bike. Is it the handling? The performance? The comfort?"

    Yes, it's the handling, the performance and the comfort. From my first ride I was able to discern that the Love #3 excelled in each of these areas. Here's what I wrote back in 10/06 after riding the frame about 40 miles:

    First of all, it was not harsh at all. Not a bit. I’d characterize the ride as “solid” – feedback from the road was direct and consistent. Its ride is not smooth and buttery like the Nove, nor does it have the spring of good steel. The bike felt very much of a piece, firm and integrated in a very good way.

    Power transmission was excellent. I used to think my Seven did this well – My Nove is night-and-day better, and the Love improves on the Nove! Very impressive, and I really enjoyed powering up short hills. I’d push, and the bike would go. I’m sure the light weight didn’t hurt here.

    Handling was exemplary – Again, I’ve got to compare the Love to my Seven & Serotta. The Axiom oversteers. It’s fast, and when I’m tired I have to pay extra attention to keep it straight. The Nove has just a hair of understeer – It hesitates just a tick before bending into a turn. The Love was as close to perfect as I’ve ever ridden. I felt confident laying it down in turns after about 90 minutes in the saddle. It simply went where I wanted it to.

    I was reminded of a comment Fat Robert made once, something to the effect of - Under 25 mph, Pegs are nice. Under 30 mph, they’re wonderful. Over 30, they’re freaking awesome! I felt like the bike revealed itself more the faster I was pushing it.

    The Love #3’s got a strong personality: Exemplary handling, solid & stiff, and all in very light package. It’s a great frame. And it reeks of its creator’s personality. From the paint to fat tubes to the welds, it’s just plain cool.

    My impressions haven't substantially changed over the 3+ years I've been riding it since then. There's nothing magic about the bike. Like everything else, it's not perfect - It could be less stiff over broken pavement, it could weigh less, the paint could be more durable.

    But the bike Mr. Heine describes bears no relation to my long experience with the Love #3. And the test bike's painful setup, coupled with his tortured disingenuous rationale for it, explain his conclusions all too well.

    Mr. Heine and VBQ have no credibility with me any more.
    GO!

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    ********
    ...Once I rode the Pegoretti, I was disappointed - how come a bike so
    revered is so lackluster? Then I started to dig into the history of
    the brand...

    In the end, it probably would have been better to test a bike from an
    established Italian maker, like Colnago, which is held in high esteem
    not just in the U.S., but also in its native country...

    Jan Heine
    Editor
    Bicycle Quarterly
    2116 Western Ave.
    Seattle WA 98121
    http://www.vintagebicyclepress.c
    ********

    This really goes beyond the pale and only confirms my decision to stop supporting VBQ with my patronage and advert dollars in 2005. IMHO, It's one thing to hold controversial (and my mind unsupportable) opinions and quite another to promote a bias and agenda in such a libelous and Rovian fashion.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    "However, even so, none of the commenters on Velocipede Salon were able to elucidate why a Pegoretti is supposed to be such a great bike. Is it the handling? The performance? The comfort?"

    This quote makes me laugh. I created awhole response with a plausible review of the bike where I rode it in different envornments.

    It seems like the type of review you would get if you had the owner of lambo test drive a porsche.

    I see no credibility to his words.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    There's a special kind of quasi-religious wackiness in the bike world. I don't know what it's like with the sports car faithful, but it can't be any worse than this.

    By the way, why are Porsche's so expensive? Aren't they really just VWs with fancy paint?

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    The Coppi vs. Contador pictured show what we already know: the hoods now are where the drops were in 1950, and the saddle position now is slightly higher and further back; wheelbases are shorter and bbs just a bit higher. So, when Alberto gets in his drops, which he does, he's longer and lower than Fausto. The same goes for one-day racers. Cancellara is longer and lower than Rik Van Steenbergen, and with good reason. Why? the roads are better. Also, the power and aerodynamics studies of the early 90s convinced the Europen cycling culture to get longer and lower.

    Positions didn't change much from say 1955 to 1985. I mentioned this before, but go to YouTube and watch the '85 Ghent Wevelgem. Watch Gerrie Knetmann winning the '85 Amstel. Watch a lot of the early 80s Vuelta footage that you can find, as well as some of the '82 and '83 Tour stages. You see front ends that are just a bit -- a cm or two -- shorter and higher. Saddles are also just a bit further forward. The very slight shift in positions happens in the 90s. Why? It's faster. Full stop. Look, European pros have access to more expertise than does VBQ. If Fabian Cancellara would be faster in a position that Jos Bruyere would have ridden in, then he would be in that position.

    I don't edit and publich my own magazine. I have no claims to authority beyond my own experience as a USCF racer. For what it's worth I once held a Cat 2 license, but downgraded after 5 years out of racing. I'm a 43 year old Masters hobby racer who still turns out 700 hours a year on the bike because I just love riding. That's the extent of my knowledge.

    For what it's worth, I prefer the handling of my 56 Quattro Assi (56TT with a 140 stem) to any other bike I've raced on since 1981. My QA has the shortest wheelbase of any bike I've ridden -- 98.87cm -- and I've set my best time *down* Caesar's Head, a technical 10k climb, on that bike. Short with a long stem may have a tendency towards oversteer, as Dave Bohm pointed out to me in an a-mail, but my racing experience is that I can rip through crit corners and descents a tad faster when my weight is a bit more "over" the wheels than "in-between" them.


    Modern race bikes make sense, and they are fast. Long stem, large drop isn't fashion or posing. It's where a race-fit athlete is comfortable, powerful, and in control of the bike. It is not the optiumum position for other riding applications, however.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    "However, even so, none of the commentators on Velocipede Salon were able to elucidate why a Pegoretti is supposed to be such a great bike. Is it the handling? The performance? The comfort?" (sp fixed)

    He was educated, he just refuses to learn to get a proper fit , I stand by my judgment of ineptness he clearly shows it on all levels. BQ needs to writ a retraction and apology to all readers for they have had in their employ someone so inept that it can do damage to the sport.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bssc View Post
    "However, even so, none of the commentators on Velocipede Salon were able to elucidate why a Pegoretti is supposed to be such a great bike. Is it the handling? The performance? The comfort?" (sp fixed)

    He was educated, he just refuses to learn to get a proper fit , I stand by my judgment of ineptness he clearly shows it on all levels. BQ needs to writ a retraction and apology to all readers for they have had in their employ someone so inept that it can do damage to the sport.
    I think Jan owns BQ, no?

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    These are, in part, some of the Editorial Standards of BQ listed on the website:

    - Technical and historic articles are reviewed by one or several experts in the field before publication. This ensures that the articles represent the current state of knowledge and contain reliable information.

    - Comments and corrections are welcome from anybody, and will be published in the next issue.

    Above all, Bicycle Quarterly is a fun and passionate magazine about the sport we love. Our standards simply ensure that your copies of Bicycle Quarterly will remain a useful resource for many years to come.


    Who reviewed the pegoretti review? or, is a review not considered a technical article and is exempt from review? This seems like the mere appearance, but not the substance, of peer review.

    Will everyone's comments and corrections be published in the next issue? Will BQ remain a useful resource for years to come?

    to this I have to conclude that

    "Overall, the appeal of Bicycle Quarterly probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual text."

    But don't get me wrong, I didn't say that I didn't like the magazine, er, journal.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Yep. If I bought and reviewed a randonneuse configured the way my Pegoretti was configured and then complained that I found the handling off, Jan would no doubt be at the front of the line telling me I don't get it. ...Even if I cited my two RAAMs and countless double centuries as proof that I'm an accomplished rider.

    Ultimately this comes down to ego, namely Jan's. He goofed up but he can't admit it. We're all human, but to press a failed position this long is simply foolish. I've long enjoyed VBQ/BQ. But in my mind this is enough to take my patronage elsewhere as well.

    Regards,
    Scott


    Quote Originally Posted by Archibald View Post
    ********
    ...Once I rode the Pegoretti, I was disappointed - how come a bike so
    revered is so lackluster? Then I started to dig into the history of
    the brand...

    In the end, it probably would have been better to test a bike from an
    established Italian maker, like Colnago, which is held in high esteem
    not just in the U.S., but also in its native country...

    Jan Heine
    Editor
    Bicycle Quarterly
    2116 Western Ave.
    Seattle WA 98121
    http://www.vintagebicyclepress.c
    ********

    This really goes beyond the pale and only confirms my decision to stop supporting VBQ with my patronage and advert dollars in 2005. IMHO, It's one thing to hold controversial (and my mind unsupportable) opinions and quite another to promote a bias and agenda in such a libelous and Rovian fashion.

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    Default Re: Fun Summer Reading From I-Bob (Heine and Peg Pt. 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post

    "Overall, the appeal of Bicycle Quarterly probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual text."

    But don't get me wrong, I didn't say that I didn't like the magazine, er, journal.

    That was awesome! I got a good laugh out of it.

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