Frame Building and Outsourcing

[caleb]

On the 25Seven blog Rob Vandermark, founder and President of Seven Cycles, claims that, "a big number of US “frame builders” source their bikes from China."

Does this claim have validity?

If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?

[e-RICHIE]

On the 25Seven blog Rob Vandermark, founder and President of Seven Cycles, claims that, "a big number of US “frame builders” source their bikes from China."

Does this claim have validity?

If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?

define framebuilder atmo.

[caleb]

define framebuilder atmo.

I guess that's my question: is he talking about brands like Salsa or Felt that everyone knows are outsourced, or is he talking about actual builders, the sort who put their name on the downtube?

[Liberace]

define framebuilder atmo.

Exactly.

framebuilder = in touch & in control
frame designers = in & out of touch, but no real control, unless you have a great relationship and understanding, or have a rep in the factory and still shit happens. (Results can be all over the place-excellent to poor)

What does e-RICHIE and others think of the non-custom Rivendells? Is the Toyo factory as high quaility as Riv makes it out to be?

[e-RICHIE]

I guess that's my question: is he talking about brands like Salsa or Felt that everyone knows are outsourced, or is he talking about actual builders, the sort who put their name on the downtube?

how would i know? i never even knew he had a blog.
and why does it matter? folks should be able to make
money. subcontracting in my industry is and has always
been commonplace - the norm. whether it's 2 regions
over the appenines or in asia, it's still how business gets
done. otherwise no one would ever have bicycles to sell
at the LBS atmo.

[caleb]

and why does it matter?

In the big scheme, it doesn't. I'm sure outsourced bikes ride fine. As a commodity the bike is probably unaffected.

Yet, honesty and transparency are at stake, as are the personal relationships for which people seek out frame builders. If someone deliberately represents their frames as being built in-house when in fact they're made in China, that's a lie. I don't like being lied to. Paying extra for a lie adds injury to insult.

[e-RICHIE]

In the big scheme, it doesn't. I'm sure outsourced bikes ride fine.

Yet, honesty and transparency are at stake. If someone deliberately represents their frames as being built in-house when in fact they're made in China, that's a lie. I don't like being lied to. Paying extra for a lie adds injury to insult.

do you feel this way about everything or just frames? for instance, my
american brand jeans were not made in san francisco. etcetera. how much
emotion really needs to be attched? it's all just stuff. unless a company has
a sign or a tag line that says everything it sells that has its name is made in
the next room, what kind of information would be enough atmo?

[jerk]

my tubes are all made in italy by a company that can do a much better job at fabricating aluminum tubes than i ever could.
my frames are all built by a guy in colorado who can do a much better job at fabrication than i ever could.
my frames are all heat treated at a facility in colorado that can do a much better job at heat treating aluminum than i ever could.
my frames are all painted by a guy in california that can do a much better job at painting than i ever could.

the bikes still get my name on the downtube because they're my bikes.

anyway,
jerk

[caleb]

do you feel this way about everything or just frames? for instance, my
american brand jeans were not made in san francisco. etcetera. how much
emotion really needs to be attched? it's all just stuff. unless a company has
a sign or a tag line that says everything it sells that has its name is made in
the next room, what kind of information would be enough atmo?

I'll lay out the extremes of what I'm talking about and what I'm not talking about being misleading. I'm sure there's a messy middle, but here are the outlines.

What I'm not talking about: Mr. Bell paints Mr. Sachs frames. Mr. Sachs puts his name on the downtube. Not a problem as nobody who buys a Sachs expects Atmo to bust out the paintbrush himself because he doesn't claim to do so, nor is there any recent precedent of him doing it that would imply such an expectation.

What I am talking about: On their website IF says that, "Every frameset we build is custom, built for an individual customer from start to finish here in our Somerville factory." Purely hypothetically, if they were to then actually have their frames built in China I would have a big problem with it.

[Liberace]

http://construct.typepad.com/25seven...-in-china.html

This is the article I think Caleb was referring too.

[GrantM]

If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?

My guess he means Specialized, Trek, Cervelo, etc. His blog seems written with enough context
for the average reader of bicycling magazine, and not the cognoscenti who understand what
"framebuilder" means...

-g

[jean-jacques EPOeau]

define framebuilder atmo.

You would need the one using the word in the primary source to define it in this case. How is he defining framebuilder.

[GrantM]

define framebuilder atmo.

For the average consumer, it's the brand on the downtube.

[hampco]

toyo frames are fine and they're worth whatever rivendell is asking for them. no, it's not a curt goodrich but it's not priced like one.

if a company is advertising $1400 custom titanium frames and are being coy about who does the work, chances are they come from asia or russia. but what does it matter? you get what you pay for.

i have no idea who rob is thinking of - you could ask him.

[hampco]

can you link the post? your last link didn't work for me.

[jean-jacques EPOeau]

linkey doo
http://construct.typepad.com/25seven...-in-china.html

[Chauncey Matthews]

On the 25Seven blog Rob Vandermark, founder and President of Seven Cycles, claims that, "a big number of US “frame builders” source their bikes from China."

Does this claim have validity?

If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?

Probably these "framebuilders" http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328 not so much builders as designers/distributers.

[WadePatton]

do you feel this way about everything or just frames? for instance, my
american brand jeans were not made in san francisco. etcetera.

you want American made jeans? mine are.
you want Amercan made boots? mine are.
(sneek a peek at the show)

there's "pretends to be domestic" bicycle bag company out there...i emailed them about their bags, "all china all the time" reply. okay, i found a domestic source. i simply prefer to support small business owners who work with their hands. that's big enough hassle, you do your thing.

country of origin information--if it's hard to find, assume under-developed sweatshop somewhere. and yes, some sweatshops are less repressive than others.

[Archibald]

Death to invaders.

Hey, when it comes to business, I'm a nationalist first, aka, Jingoism is not a crime.

[steve garro]

define framebuilder atmo.

check out the script on the toptube. A framebuilder {as in in the singular} means handjobbing every one of those.........just sayin' Steve.