Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 47

Thread: Frame Building and Outsourcing

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NY & MN
    Posts
    3,974
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Frame Building and Outsourcing

    On the 25Seven blog Rob Vandermark, founder and President of Seven Cycles, claims that, "a big number of US “frame builders” source their bikes from China."

    Does this claim have validity?

    If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?
     

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Better to be ruined than to be silent atmo.
    Posts
    18,516
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    On the 25Seven blog Rob Vandermark, founder and President of Seven Cycles, claims that, "a big number of US “frame builders” source their bikes from China."

    Does this claim have validity?

    If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?


    define framebuilder atmo.
     

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NY & MN
    Posts
    3,974
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    define framebuilder atmo.
    I guess that's my question: is he talking about brands like Salsa or Felt that everyone knows are outsourced, or is he talking about actual builders, the sort who put their name on the downtube?
     

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Garden State
    Posts
    91
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    define framebuilder atmo.
    Exactly.

    framebuilder = in touch & in control
    frame designers = in & out of touch, but no real control, unless you have a great relationship and understanding, or have a rep in the factory and still shit happens. (Results can be all over the place-excellent to poor)

    What does e-RICHIE and others think of the non-custom Rivendells? Is the Toyo factory as high quaility as Riv makes it out to be?
    Last edited by Liberace; 02-05-2009 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Added some text after frame designers
     

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Better to be ruined than to be silent atmo.
    Posts
    18,516
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    I guess that's my question: is he talking about brands like Salsa or Felt that everyone knows are outsourced, or is he talking about actual builders, the sort who put their name on the downtube?
    how would i know? i never even knew he had a blog.
    and why does it matter? folks should be able to make
    money. subcontracting in my industry is and has always
    been commonplace - the norm. whether it's 2 regions
    over the appenines or in asia, it's still how business gets
    done. otherwise no one would ever have bicycles to sell
    at the LBS atmo.
     

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NY & MN
    Posts
    3,974
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    and why does it matter?
    In the big scheme, it doesn't. I'm sure outsourced bikes ride fine. As a commodity the bike is probably unaffected.

    Yet, honesty and transparency are at stake, as are the personal relationships for which people seek out frame builders. If someone deliberately represents their frames as being built in-house when in fact they're made in China, that's a lie. I don't like being lied to. Paying extra for a lie adds injury to insult.
     

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Better to be ruined than to be silent atmo.
    Posts
    18,516
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    In the big scheme, it doesn't. I'm sure outsourced bikes ride fine.

    Yet, honesty and transparency are at stake. If someone deliberately represents their frames as being built in-house when in fact they're made in China, that's a lie. I don't like being lied to. Paying extra for a lie adds injury to insult.
    do you feel this way about everything or just frames? for instance, my
    american brand jeans were not made in san francisco. etcetera. how much
    emotion really needs to be attched? it's all just stuff. unless a company has
    a sign or a tag line that says everything it sells that has its name is made in
    the next room, what kind of information would be enough atmo?
     

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,454
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    my tubes are all made in italy by a company that can do a much better job at fabricating aluminum tubes than i ever could.
    my frames are all built by a guy in colorado who can do a much better job at fabrication than i ever could.
    my frames are all heat treated at a facility in colorado that can do a much better job at heat treating aluminum than i ever could.
    my frames are all painted by a guy in california that can do a much better job at painting than i ever could.

    the bikes still get my name on the downtube because they're my bikes.

    anyway,
    jerk
     

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NY & MN
    Posts
    3,974
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    do you feel this way about everything or just frames? for instance, my
    american brand jeans were not made in san francisco. etcetera. how much
    emotion really needs to be attched? it's all just stuff. unless a company has
    a sign or a tag line that says everything it sells that has its name is made in
    the next room, what kind of information would be enough atmo?
    I'll lay out the extremes of what I'm talking about and what I'm not talking about being misleading. I'm sure there's a messy middle, but here are the outlines.

    What I'm not talking about: Mr. Bell paints Mr. Sachs frames. Mr. Sachs puts his name on the downtube. Not a problem as nobody who buys a Sachs expects Atmo to bust out the paintbrush himself because he doesn't claim to do so, nor is there any recent precedent of him doing it that would imply such an expectation.

    What I am talking about: On their website IF says that, "Every frameset we build is custom, built for an individual customer from start to finish here in our Somerville factory." Purely hypothetically, if they were to then actually have their frames built in China I would have a big problem with it.
     

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Garden State
    Posts
    91
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    http://construct.typepad.com/25seven...-in-china.html

    This is the article I think Caleb was referring too.
     

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Coquitlam, British Columbia
    Posts
    8,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post

    If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?
    My guess he means Specialized, Trek, Cervelo, etc. His blog seems written with enough context
    for the average reader of bicycling magazine, and not the cognoscenti who understand what
    "framebuilder" means...

    -g
     

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    245
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    define framebuilder atmo.
    You would need the one using the word in the primary source to define it in this case. How is he defining framebuilder.
     

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Coquitlam, British Columbia
    Posts
    8,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    define framebuilder atmo.
    For the average consumer, it's the brand on the downtube.
     

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,894
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    toyo frames are fine and they're worth whatever rivendell is asking for them. no, it's not a curt goodrich but it's not priced like one.

    if a company is advertising $1400 custom titanium frames and are being coy about who does the work, chances are they come from asia or russia. but what does it matter? you get what you pay for.

    i have no idea who rob is thinking of - you could ask him.
    Steve Hampsten
    www.hampsten.blogspot.com
    "hey, we got grenades!"

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,894
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    can you link the post? your last link didn't work for me.
    Steve Hampsten
    www.hampsten.blogspot.com
    "hey, we got grenades!"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    245
    Post Thanks / Like

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Belen, NM
    Posts
    469
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    On the 25Seven blog Rob Vandermark, founder and President of Seven Cycles, claims that, "a big number of US “frame builders” source their bikes from China."

    Does this claim have validity?

    If so, to which "framebuilders" is he referring?
    Probably these "framebuilders" http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328 not so much builders as designers/distributers.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cannon County TN
    Posts
    5,750
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    do you feel this way about everything or just frames? for instance, my
    american brand jeans were not made in san francisco. etcetera.
    you want American made jeans? mine are.
    you want Amercan made boots? mine are.
    (sneek a peek at the show)

    there's "pretends to be domestic" bicycle bag company out there...i emailed them about their bags, "all china all the time" reply. okay, i found a domestic source. i simply prefer to support small business owners who work with their hands. that's big enough hassle, you do your thing.

    country of origin information--if it's hard to find, assume under-developed sweatshop somewhere. and yes, some sweatshops are less repressive than others.






  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,653
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Death to invaders.

    Hey, when it comes to business, I'm a nationalist first, aka, Jingoism is not a crime.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Flagstaff, Arizona
    Posts
    9,216
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    define framebuilder atmo.
    check out the script on the toptube. A framebuilder {as in in the singular} means handjobbing every one of those.........just sayin' Steve.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •