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Thread: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

  1. #1
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    Default determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    interesting general thought that i would like to hear thoughts and comments on.

    some years ago when serotta introduced the ottrott..it was introduced and sold at about double the price of every other hand made custom bike in the market. the bike was custom but certainly not very light...about $5k frame no fork...
    we have a lot of framebuilders here.
    what were your thoughts when you saw this?
    for consumers, this was a successful product. they sold well... "best of the best, etc, etc " why did you would you/ buy one?
    my thoughts rang something like..." really? for a serotta? WOW, who would buy that? " followed by..." my shit is too cheap...if someone would pay THAT for THAT!"

    i remember it was voted bike of the year or something at the time... indy came out afterward with their own 5k frame and that was bike of the year the next year.... or so.


    this is not a slam on serotta though it could be interpreted that way but it is certainly not something i could ask at the old meeting place...

    comments? thoughts?
     

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    I thought folks were insane to pay that for a frame and fork. But they opened that door and folks walked in. Then they raised that bar again with the Meivichi (SP?). $7-8K for a frame and fork???? People walked through that door too. They are leading the way for the niche bandwagon and other folks are figuring that if Serotta can do..so can they. They are driving the market upward. Are they riding the bubble, or creating it?

    Don’t get me wrong, I think folks like Zanc, “e”, Curt and others should get a fair price for their work. But there is no way in heck I would ever spend $5 to $8G’s on a frame and fork. Period. Exclusivity is just not that important to me.



    William
    You know you're semi-good looking...

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    I can only give you my personal perspective as a customer.

    When I first started shopping for a "high end" bike in 2003, I targeted $3k for the complete bike. I ended up with an eBay Seven Axiom Steel, and came pretty close to that target.

    As I got deeper into the scene, I figured I'd spend around $4k for a full custom. I ended up getting a stock Nove frame off the floor from Wheelworks at a deep discount, and spent around $5k when all was said and done. I spent more than I originally intended, but got much more bike.

    It was a similar deal with the Pegoretti - The jerk offered me a deal on the Love #3 I ultimately couldn't refuse. By this time, I knew what I wanted and spent a bit over $4k by the time I was done.

    So, here's what I know about myself - I like the good stuff, but am a sucker for a deal. In the abstract, I can see spending as much as, say, $4,000 on the frame. But right now I'm looking at the steel Hampsten Classic/Tournesol Leger and thinking, "yes." Those are $2k frames.

    I'm getting more interested in playing around with groups and wheels. And my Hong Kong tailor is in town today, too.

    So, don't listen to me. I don't know what I think.
    GO!

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    hey william,
    your credit card was declined on me...
    i was trying to buy a pr of lightweight ultra wheels for $9,450/
    can you check on it?
    i need the wheels for the weekend.
     

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveP
    hey william,
    your credit card was declined on me...
    i was trying to buy a pr of lightweight ultra wheels for $9,450/
    can you check on it?
    i need the wheels for the weekend.
    That's cause the girls at the CC company know what I'll do to them if any one but me uses that card number...

    You know you're semi-good looking...

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Pricing raises the bar of expectation. I've ridden a Time vxrs and a mevici.
    The Time was in every way a better bike, and it cost less, by about half.
    A bike is too expensive when you ride it, and it makes you think "how much is this thing?"
    That's pretty much what i was thinking the whole time I was riding the mevici.

    There is no doubt that the brands actually benefit from pushing upwards. Raising the price
    of what people consider the "middle" price is a good thing for their image, and the easiest
    way to do that is keep introducing high end stuff, and keep filtering it down the line.
    But don't reach the breaking point, that the challenge. Even on the Serotta Forum, it seemed
    to almost create a backlash with the price tag for the mevici was announced. People want
    value. If you price yourself so far over where the market is, don't expect sales to be easy.
    I think even Colnago is finding it a tough go right now for that very reason.

    g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    I'd add Parlee to that list as well. Please don't get me wrong, he makes great frames but the prices have increased exponentially (along with others)
    Honorary member of the IH8Lance club

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    swoop sent me this awesome pornographic movie about theo bos' track bike. it cost 3million euros and doesn't even come with a brake, gears or lights according to the film. if it wins a gold medal though; it was a great value for the consumer.

    fuck it, an ottrott or a meivici are overpriced because you can get better, more technologically advanced bicycles for less money. cycling is still one of the only sports in the world where almost anyone can afford junk that's even better than what the best riders in the world use. go try to buy a ferrari formula one car; they won't sell it to you no matter how much money you have. how much does it cost to golf at pebble beach? don't even talk about the time i rented out yankee stadium for the stripper and clown convention....

    jerk
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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    and the better bike can be made out of any material. the myth of the perfect material is asinine. its always the guy making the bikes understanding of the material that makes it come to life.
    the rest is for marketing idiots that don't really ride.


    shrink, terrorist, poet, president of concerned cyclists for the abolishment of bovine source bicycle parts and head of the disaffected commie dishwashers union.

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Prices are like porn. And you know what the judge said...
    Fit is directly proportional to fitness.

  11. #11
    Saab2000

    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. My Look "Module" cost me $750. A new Time VXR Module is about $4000+. No way in hell is that Time module 5-6 times better.

    So there.
     

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catulle
    Prices are like porn. And you know what the judge said...
    porn: "the other white meat?", " this isn't porn, this is just a dwarf putting his penis in the fundament of a girl that happens to be high as a kite. we were filiming the wall and they got in the way?", "oh, we get tested weekly?", "my wife is really into it", "we're german", etc. yadda yadda yadda.
    shrink, terrorist, poet, president of concerned cyclists for the abolishment of bovine source bicycle parts and head of the disaffected commie dishwashers union.

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. My Look "Module" cost me $750. A new Time VXR Module is about $4000+. No way in hell is that Time module. 5-6 times better.

    So there.
    um, huh?

    a 595ultra is 4k, a time vxrs module is 5k. neither are 750. both are great rigs (arguably better than a meivici) and not 8k.
    shrink, terrorist, poet, president of concerned cyclists for the abolishment of bovine source bicycle parts and head of the disaffected commie dishwashers union.

  14. #14
    Saab2000

    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by swoop
    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. My Look "Module" cost me $750. A new Time VXR Module is about $4000+. No way in hell is that Time module. 5-6 times better.

    So there.
    um, huh?

    a 595ultra is 4k, a time vxrs module is 5k. neither are 750. both are great rigs (arguably better than a meivici) and not 8k.
     

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by swoop
    and the better bike can be made out of any material. the myth of the perfect material is asinine. its always the guy making the bikes understanding of the material that makes it come to life.
    the rest is for marketing idiots that don't really ride.
    Bullshit! To make a better bike you have to have vertically integrated production process with re-contextualized content-based functionalities, and up-sized user-facing synergy.

    Oh, and carbon fiber.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.


  16. #16
    Saab2000

    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Quote Originally Posted by swoop
    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. My Look "Module" cost me $750. A new Time VXR Module is about $4000+. No way in hell is that Time module. 5-6 times better.

    So there.
    um, huh?

    a 595ultra is 4k, a time vxrs module is 5k. neither are 750. both are great rigs (arguably better than a meivici) and not 8k.
    I don't have the 595. I suppose the 595 is more or less comparable to the VXRS. Can't say which is better because I've ridden neither. But my 'old' 381 is surprisingly adequate and even new was half or so what the 595 is costing today. Prices have gone up way faster than inflation. That's my point. I don't know where the ceiling is. But there is no way today's mega$$$ bikes are orders of magnitude better than their predecessors of just a few years ago.

    An $8000 Meivici is outrageous IMHO. But not to those who buy them. Last night at the race there was a dude on a Pinarello Prince with full Record. In the B race. Lawyer. If that's his thing, more power to him. I can't swing that kinda coin.
     

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Check. You got the sound of one hand clapping. +5 now.



    Quote Originally Posted by swoop
    Quote Originally Posted by Catulle
    Prices are like porn. And you know what the judge said...
    porn: "the other white meat?", " this isn't porn, this is just a dwarf putting his penis in the fundament of a girl that happens to be high as a kite. we were filiming the wall and they got in the way?", "oh, we get tested weekly?", "my wife is really into it", "we're german", etc. yadda yadda yadda.
    Fit is directly proportional to fitness.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    i just want to nudge us to the phenomena of super high prices that evoke a paradigm shift in the industry and then how we're all screwed. an 8k bike that rides no better than a 4k bike is an interesting starting point for a conversation when the result is, someone goes.. we can sell this 4k bike for 8k!

    shrink, terrorist, poet, president of concerned cyclists for the abolishment of bovine source bicycle parts and head of the disaffected commie dishwashers union.

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    But this is nothing new, not even in the bike industry.

    I remember hearing a story about Gary Klein's early days. He was quickly going broke, so had decided to close up his shop and was selling off his tiny remaining inventory of frames. Just for a goof, he priced the frames outrageously high, maybe 4x what he'd been selling them for. They quickly sold out, and he was back in business.
    GO!

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    Default Re: determining pricing for a frame..how much is too much?

    Price is part of the heirarchy when you have no reference points.

    We used to live in a world where the price of products was based on
    how much they cost to make, and the mark up was set by the price
    of doing business. The 'luxury' market has fucked that all up.

    Go to a hi-fi shop and demo some speakers. The one's that sound good
    cost more. It's got nothing to do with what they cost to make.
    Are bikes headed that direction? It's getting pretty hard to justify the
    delta in price between Record and Chorus, or Ultegra and DuraAce based
    the the product. Why do people buy Record at retail? Becuase it's the
    top of the line? Also, if you're buying a Prince, does it make sense to
    build it with Chorus to save $500 over building it with Record?
    What's another $500 when you're spending $10k. Self fulfilling...

    g
    EPOst hoc ergo propter hoc

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