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Thread: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

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    Default Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    I am having a bit of an issue with braking on my Enve rear rims that is bedeviling me a bit. When I apply the rear brake, after the initial bite I get a vibration that sets up between the pad and the textured rim track. It's not a squeal as such but more of a rumble and I can feel the vibration through the saddle. I have tried everything I can think of with the pad set up. I have set them up flat to the rim, slightly toed in and heavily toed in. I have tried the black Enve pads that are supplied with the newer textured rim tracks and I have also tried the older Enve grey pads that were made for their old smooth brake tracks. I am currently using DA 9100 calipers and previously used DA9000 and had the issue with both and tried all setup options with both.

    The problem seems to be slightly lessened when the rear wheel isn't unweighted so much, when I use the rear brake only. When I brake heavily and use the front most is when the rumble is the greatest.

    I never have any issues what so ever with the front. I have always set the black Enve pads flat to the rim on the front and have never had any vibration with either the 9100 or 9000 calipers.


    Any ideas? It's not a game ending problem but it is annoying and I would love to cure it if I could. This rumble doesn't diminish the braking capacity of the pad and rim. I still stop plenty quickly.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Could it possibly be the wheel loose on the axle or the caliper? I had an issue with the front brake pads causing a type of crubbing or vibration too once. Possibly clean the pads and rims again or reset the brake pads to see if the angle they are touching the rim at could change the feel (toe in or out also)?
    "It never gets easier, you just go faster." - Greg Lemond

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sascha Roszak View Post
    Could it possibly be the wheel loose on the axle or the caliper? I had an issue with the front brake pads causing a type of crubbing or vibration too once. Possibly clean the pads and rims again or reset the brake pads to see if the angle they are touching the rim at could change the feel (toe in or out also)?
    I don't think so. It has occurred across multiple rear wheels on two different bikes with two different brake calipers. I have sanded the old pads and done quick A/B trials with old and sanded pads and brand new pads of each type and the rumble rumbles on. I am thinking of giving some SStop Black Prince pads a try in the rear.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    I was going to suggest cleaning the rims, like with alcohol and a toothbrush. But then I remembered that any rim-braking woes I've ever had get solved by a good sloppy ride that submerges the rims in thick, peanut butter mud. And that's a lot more fun.

    255668_1914993646604_980976_n.jpg

    Cheers, TH.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    I have thought of that, and have done it once or twice (though not recently) with little effect. And if rim buildup was the culprit I would think that the front would present the bigger problem since that sees the heaviest braking force, and wears through pads much quicker.

    I am truly flummoxed by this. I have tried every solution I could draw from my 30 year cycling knowledge base and nothing has worked. I am going to get on the horn to Enve later today when they open and ask some questions.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Broken/cracked frame?

    If it happens most when braking with front and rear, sounds like something in between the two brakes is reacting to braking forces on the frame. An vibrating accordion effect for lack of better description.

    Just remembering an OCLV in the shop with separation at the BB-to-downtube joint. Frame kind of shuddered weirdly with hard braking.
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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Broken/cracked frame?

    If it happens most when braking with front and rear, sounds like something in between the two brakes is reacting to braking forces on the frame. An vibrating accordion effect for lack of better description.

    Just remembering an OCLV in the shop with separation at the BB-to-downtube joint. Frame kind of shuddered weirdly with hard braking.
    Happens on two different Zank alu frames. I haven't come across any cracks.

    I just got off the phone with Enve and after going through the details they want to warranty them. I am a little annoyed since I don't know that this will eradicate the issue. I have four Enve rear wheels, two 3.4s and two 4.5s, and they all exhibit it. Being in Bermuda and having my wheels built for me in the US, this free warranty replacement is going to cost me a fair bit of money. Ugh!
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    Happens on two different Zank alu frames. I haven't come across any cracks.

    I just got off the phone with Enve and after going through the details they want to warranty them. I am a little annoyed since I don't know that this will eradicate the issue. I have four Enve rear wheels, two 3.4s and two 4.5s, and they all exhibit it. Being in Bermuda and having my wheels built for me in the US, this free warranty replacement is going to cost me a fair bit of money. Ugh!
    Do either of those Zanks have the bolt on rear dropouts?


    edit: Nevermind - that would only be on a disc-brake frame....
    Last edited by j44ke; 10-17-2018 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    No, they both have the Cantabrigian dropouts - the kind Gaulzetti used to use on his Corsa frames.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Brake pads touch the rim at the same time when depressed? Maybe 1 is touching it too early causing flex in the rim and extra stress that is traveling through the frame.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmagoulas View Post
    Brake pads touch the rim at the same time when depressed? Maybe 1 is touching it too early causing flex in the rim and extra stress that is traveling through the frame.
    Yup - pads are evenly set.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    I have a 4 letter answer for you: bora
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    When I ran Enve wheels with the textured brake track on one of my bikes with Dura Ace 9000 calipers, I had the exact same thing happen. No matter what I did, I'd get the vibration when using the rear brake. Swapped the bike over to Campagnolo... no problem. Ran eeBrakes... no problem (and that was with the same pads, too). You're not alone.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Does anyone know who makes the Enve pads and if they are a bespoke compound? I am wondering if they are simply re-badged.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Reanimating this thread as I have developed a similar issue... with my Bora Ultra 35 tubs.

    The question is not how to diagnose, but how to treat...

    Sitrep:
    - sudden mega pulsing when braking
    - coincides with putting wheels on a different bike
    - old bike had SR calipers with SwissStop pads, new bike has Chorus calipers with like new OE Campy pads
    - maybe ~25 miles, max, on the Boras since moving to the new bike
    - first thought was headset adjustment or loose caliper, checked both, all good...

    Spinning the wheels on the bike, in the stand, the brake surface is surprisingly uneven. As the wheel spins around, instead of a perfect, smooth surface I feel unevenness.

    There was never an issue with a couple thousand miles with the SwissStop blocks. However it was almost immediately an issue with the OE Campy pads.

    I speculate that the Campy material is sticking to some SwissStop residue that is embedded in the Campy braking texture...

    Corrective actions could include:

    - ride in mud (thanks again, TH)
    - replace with Campy carbon pads (will do today) and grab a fistful of levers on speedy descents
    - other?


    I think I'm on the right track (so to speak), but any other insights appreciated...

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    Happens on two different Zank alu frames.
    As bizarre as this sounds, could the alu be the problem? I've heard of this being an issue with ENVE wheels on Cannondale CAAD frames - one guy locally is selling his ENVE wheels because of it (ok on all other bikes except his No.1 bike, which is a CAAD12).

    Doesn't explain TTX1's issue with his Boras, though - in that regard...

    Quote Originally Posted by TTX1 View Post
    - replace with Campy carbon pads (will do today) and grab a fistful of levers on speedy descents
    I use these (or the Fulcrum version, which are the same thing) on all carbon rims these days - nothing matches them in terms of their all-round good performance.

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    So, I’ve got this going on with a set of DT Oxics and 9100 brakes. Rear only. I loosen the caliper bolt to where it’s just holding the brake centered and it goes away. Quite frustrating. And I’m really wishing I had a set of Aerolink brakes to try.

    Oh, also an aluminum frame.
    Last edited by dashDustin; 07-15-2019 at 09:22 PM.
    -Dustin

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichTheRoadie View Post
    As bizarre as this sounds, could the alu be the problem? I've heard of this being an issue with ENVE wheels on Cannondale CAAD frames - one guy locally is selling his ENVE wheels because of it (ok on all other bikes except his No.1 bike, which is a CAAD12).
    Rich, I have concluded that the alu tubing is somehow the culprit. The 9100 caliper's stiffness is causing some kind of harmonic vibration to kick off when you apply it. I have been running a 9000 rear caliper since I gave up trying to fix the 9100 issue and have had no issues. I mentioned this to another frame builder and he thought beefier (thicker walled) seatstays might be the answer.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    Quote Originally Posted by bdaghisallo View Post
    Rich, I have concluded that the alu tubing is somehow the culprit. The 9100 caliper's stiffness is causing some kind of harmonic vibration to kick off when you apply it. I have been running a 9000 rear caliper since I gave up trying to fix the 9100 issue and have had no issues. I mentioned this to another frame builder and he thought beefier (thicker walled) seatstays might be the answer.
    It's not just aluminum. I had the same issue with Force brakes on my green steel Gaulzetti after switching to Fulcrum Nite wheels. Worked fine with HED Belgiums and Force brakes. Worked fine with the Fulcrum Nites and Red Aerolink brakes. But Fulcrum Nites and Force brakes would howl. The front, with the ENVE fork, worked fine any any combination.
     

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    Default Re: Braking issue on Enve textured rims - rear only? I am stumped.

    I've got 3 aluminum bikes in my stable. All with 9100 brakes. I think I'll swap my Oxics and see what happens.

    Gaulzetti - noisy.

    Next up - Allez DSW (not Sprint).
    -Dustin

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