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Thread: bike laws: stop means stop

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    Default bike laws: stop means stop

    interesting perspectives

    http://www.slate.com/id/2232555/

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    People are so used to motorists breaking laws that they obsess about us instead. I see 100 motorists breaking laws for every cyclist I see running a red light. Motorists are endangering pedestrians, cyclists and other motorists when they break the law. Cyclists generally don't. When the motorists start stopping at stop signs, crack down on the cyclists.

    Around here, right turn on red means "get out of my way." I just about took a Mercedes in the shin recently. I figured there was no way he was going to turn right on red since there was oncoming traffic. I guess his theory was that the oncoming traffic had brakes and could successfully execute a panic stop.

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    I just love hearing motorists who break traffic laws every single time they get in the car complain about cyclists.

    Whatever. I might be willing to entertain the argument if they actually cared about the laws. All they're saying is "cyclists annoy me", and that's not going to change. Ban group rides, and have every cyclist on the planet start stopping at red lights and stop signs and the next complaint would surface.

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    Cyclists breaking the law is largely anti-social and (in many cases) dangerous only to the biker.
    Drivers breaking the law (or even driving distractedly) are dangerous to everyone, but no one acknowledges it.

    If you’re going to regulate on bikes, you should regulate on everyone, with a particular bent towards reducing dangerous behavior. The cell phone rules are a start, but harsher penalties for distracted driving need to be enacted. And if you can’t prove someone was distracted (hard to see a cell phone on ‘speaker’ in a driver’s lap) then major indicators of these behaviors (which are already laws) can be enforced better.

    When I’m president, we are going to see $250 penalties for not using a blinker, $500 fines for running stop signs, and $1000 for running red lights. If you can’t manage to follow these 3 basic rules while also using your phone/eating/texting, then either be prepared to pay the price, or stop the multitasking. These funds will help pay for the bike boxes that should be at the intersections where bikes feel the need to jump the light, more bike parking, better car parking options, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post
    I just love hearing motorists who break traffic laws every single time they get in the car complain about cyclists.

    Whatever. I might be willing to entertain the argument if they actually cared about the laws. All they're saying is "cyclists annoy me", and that's not going to change. Ban group rides, and have every cyclist on the planet start stopping at red lights and stop signs and the next complaint would surface.
    Did you actually read that article past the first paragraph?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post
    "...All they're saying is "cyclists annoy me", and that's not going to change.
    Ban group rides, have every cyclist on the planet start stopping at red lights and stop signs, and the next complaint would surface..."
    Excellent point.

    Additionally, we must get a handle on spiraling distracted driving. Texting and cellular chatting are far and away the most impactful events to reduce roadway safety in years.
    Drivers will say, "...but, but, but the cyclist appeared out of nowhere and (s)he was absolutely flying..." with no mention of the OUTRAGEOUS anything-other-than-driving activity occuring in vehicles these days.
    Drivers are increasingly more focused upon their handheld devices than driving their vehicles.
    For starters, I'm convinced all collisions should result in cellular records being automatically appended to the accident investigation and treated as aggravating factors.

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    I was more interested in the two groups of cyclists, vehicularists and facilitators, that was the first I had heard of this. We will probably never win over the autos only group but it sounds like we are fairly divided ourselves.

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    i got a ticket last month for running a red light.
    the crosswalk signs here have a countown from 15 to zero. as soon as it hits zero the light turns yellow for a second or two then red. there is a lag for another second or two before the adjacent light turns green.

    so i see the crosswalk hit zero and just keep rolling.
    i approach intersection. check both sides to make sure no cars are gonna run their (recently turned) red light, look up as i'm just into the intersection. my light is green. cop behind me. gives me ticket.
    i gave him my license so he cited me as a vehicle. i can't take defensive driving unless i show proof of insurance...kinda dumb...plus there is still a $111 fee...so i'll just see a judge.

    the great thing is, i see the bicycle cops all over downtown riding on the sidewalks (illegal), riding off the sidewalks into the streets and riding in the lane of oncoming traffic.
    just the other day saw some bike cops run a red light. turned yellow before they got there, turned red and they just keep cruising really slow.
    seen them also stop at red then ride through since it was clear...but any cyclist will get a ticket for any of this stuff.
    the same bike cops have written bikers tickets for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, and i don't mean running it. i mean slowing down really slow but not putting a foot down...

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    Reason 169,593 that I live in the country.


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    I am sure this has been said before: "TRACKSTAND!" No need to put foot down to stop! Bring bike to court and show off your biking skills!

    Quote Originally Posted by mister View Post
    the same bike cops have written bikers tickets for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, and i don't mean running it. i mean slowing down really slow but not putting a foot down...

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    Most of the replies have "mentioned cars do this and cars do that." Kind of ducking the issue that cycles are part of traffic and need to behave so.

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    Default speeding?

    The same people that yell at you running a stop sign are in the 75% category that ride over the speed limit on the interstate. Nobody yelling at other cars though.

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    what I don't understand is how motorists (and the cyclists who strictly adhere to law) can suddenly be ok with the 'stop means yield'/'red light means stop' laws like in Idaho, just because the laws change to make it legal...

    to me this just reflects a lack of real internal right and wrong... rather than real thinking about what behavior actually benefits cyclists and motorists and how to achieve that...

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    Good article. I enjoyed the read. Thanks for sharing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turner View Post
    Did you actually read that article past the first paragraph?
    article is pretty reasonable. But the reason there are crackdowns is that motorists are constantly complaining about us to the cops. Just because we are riding legally doesn't mean they aren't calling the cops on us.

    I'm keeping score: today I saw zero moving violations by cyclists, and I got right hooked by a motorist. Forget what the technical name is for that particular moving violation, but a right hook is just about the most lethal things a motorist can do. And I'm still upset. I followed the motorist and asked if the car had brakes because they didn't seem to be working properly.

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    ...good article

    I too liked the part of the discussion about vehicularists and facilitators. I've never heard of these opposing points of view before. I find them both having strong positions.

    It's way too common with this topic to argue points that are nothing more than red herrings. Why is that?
    "Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge is "empathy", for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in anotherís world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding." - Bill Bullard.

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    Default My politically incorrect post of the week...

    The term "running" a red light always annoys me.
    By my definition, "running" a red light means not seeing it, being too
    stupid or stoned to notice it or being incredibly dumb or reckless.

    Passing through a red light or stop sign after slowing enough to see if it
    is safe to proceed is NOT "running" a red light in my book.

    BTW, Cops do it all the time. They just don't want civilians doing it because
    they don't trust us.

    Yeah, Yeah Let it fly

    VF

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    Stop means stop? Are we in couples therapy again?

    Thanks that was a good read. Maybe folks like myself who are in and out of urban environments on bicycles everyday relate differently than those who do not? This for instance: "In the end, the legal gray area is everyone's friend. It allows cops to avoid stopping every last biker who rolls through a stop sign..." My comeback for every cyclist who carps about enforcement of traffic laws is something to the effect "it is a good idea to give an appearance of defering to local law enforcement". That alone solves almost all problems cyclists have with LE. If you got a ticket while riding a bike chances are you were noticed becuase you ride like an idiot. (apologies for everyone unjustly ticketed) I'd have a real hard time believing the world is chock full of police he!!bent on ticketing cyclists.

    How cyclists are treated by drivers is almost entirely dependant on the nut behind the wheel and will have little if anything to do with rules of the road.

    Just because I'm a madman, when DC police are behind me or visible I "dip" my suspension (my elbows) at lights than roll thru even if it is red as long as I am not causing a problem for drivers and it looks reasonable. I'll take the ticket yo. A smart operating principle for safe bicycle riding in DC is to keep moving, if you put a foot down you are vulnerable. Hey, Taylorj said that about 1000 words ago, she's CampySmart(tm).

    "Vehicularists" don't ride bikes, they dream of riding my bikes. xxoo, TT. wink wink.

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    The sign says "no" but my legs say "YES!"

    These redlights need a safety word. I suggest "portmanteau."

    I tried really hard for about 6 months to obey traffic laws. It was overrated. What do you call the "everyman for themselves" school of cycling?
    we are about to break the surly bonds of gravity and punch the face of God!

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    rolling a 4 way is standard practice for drivers and cyclists in most cities.
    i'm not sure what planet people live on where this is a big deal.
    if the intersection is clear to proceed, go safely. If it's not,
    whoever has the right of way goes. no need for everyone to sit
    there looking at each other


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