User Tag List

Page 171 of 171 FirstFirst ... 161162163164165166167168169170171
Results 3,401 to 3,413 of 3413

Thread: Dario Pegoretti

  1. #3401
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Aix-en-Provence
    Posts
    10,924
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
    I forget, did he put you on a 59? Stock?

    I'm starting to think I have an abnormal skeleton for a 6'3" (192cm) cyclist......
    No it was not stock but close to a 59. I forgot the details and do not have the bike anymore. But the fit was perfect.
     

  2. #3402
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,480
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
    As the size range progresses for the standard Pegoretti geometry, the head-tubes get taller and the seat-tubes get slacker, while the top-tubes (and front-centers) get incrementally longer.

    Stack is a measure of the distance from the BB center to a vertical point in the height of the front end, usually the top of the headset with no spacers, sometimes the top of the head-tube with no upper headset.

    Reach is a measure of the distance form the BB center to a horizontal point at the front end of the bike, usually the intersection of where stack is measured to.

    As a head-tube gets longer, due to the angle of it, it moves back toward the BB, so all else being equal, the reach gets shorter as stack gets taller.

    If a head-tube increases in length to such an extent that an increase in top-tube length does not overcome the shortening effect of the taller head-tube, a frame may get shorter in reach even as it gets "bigger" in nominal size.

    The problem with stack and reach as a be-all, end-all measurement is that it does not take into account what is happening behind the BB or how a rider may position themselves on the bike using the stem, handlebar, seatpost, and saddle.

    As Pegoretti frames get bigger, the seat-tubes get more slack, meaning there is more opportunity for a rider to sit further back, depending on their setback preference. Some ride them with zero-setback posts, others with 12-25mm setback. The choice there will certainly influence the true "reach" from the saddle to the handlebars as experienced by someone actually riding the bike.

    Of course, a stem can make a large difference in the actual reach experienced, as well as the effective stack. As can the choice of handlebars for anyone who uses their drops as something other than a place to hang their helmet at the cafe.

    The reason the 57 appears to be the "largest" size in terms of the combination of stack and reach is that it has the shortest head-tube relative to the length of the top-tube and the seat-tube angle is still a normal 73-degrees.

    The reason the 61 appears to be so "short' is that its 22cm head-tube brings the front pretty far back and its 71.5-degree seat-tube would allow a rider with really long femurs to get their saddle way, way back. If that rider used a 25mm setback post, combined with a -17x130 stem, and some proper deep-drop handlebars, I guarantee they would not experience their Mxxxxxo as a "short in reach" bike.

    I think the beauty and subtle genius of the Pegoretti geometry choices are that they allow a rider to first pick the appropriate setback and rear-ward balance point, and then sort out the front end of the bike as needed. The head-tube can be trimmed or just built lower in the first place. And a stem up to 140mm can be used to get the bars where they should be.

    For more on this, see Jerk's post: Built up my Pegoretti Duemde...

    tl;dr - stack and reach were developed for triathlon bikes and can be misleading figures if the entire bike, and how a rider sits on it, are not taken into account.

    Stack and Reach are the best tools we have for comparing two frames from different manufacturers or comparing two frames of different size to see how they will compare to each other. It's an extremely simple X-Y coordinate pair.

    Stack and Reach eliminates seattube-angle from the conversation. This is a good thing as seattube-angle can confuse things, as in your text. It also eliminates bottom bracket drop.

    A logical sizing spread would place the Stack and Reach at evenly distributed and near-linear differences across the size range. All major bike brands have figured this out over the past few years and have re-sized accordingly.

    Pegoretti seem to increment the front-center in an even and near-linear way, which is great. With a static headtube angle and fork rake across most of the range it would be pretty straight forward for them to make similar linear adjustments to stack and reach.

    Pegoretti as a brand has a lot of old-world charm and I'm sure a large part of that charm is some of the haphazardness.

  3. #3403
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Philadelphia/ Hudson Valley NY
    Posts
    796
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    why do you have such an axe to grind, Tristan? i understand your logic but at the same time, I am perplexed. this is a thread for pegoretti owners to post their bikes, not to assault the man's design philosophy...

    I would defer to some of the real builders here (or more appropriately in another thread), but I am confident that if Dario /Pietro changed the headtube angle and fork rake across their sizes, the decision reflected decades of experience, rather than a "haphazard" choice. Ciavete is whimsical , but I have trouble believing that the "canvas" could be. On that note, if you were to ask Pegoretti why they don't simply follow the solution of big box manufacturers, I'm pretty sure I know what their response would be.
     

  4. #3404
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Better to be ruined than to be silent atmo.
    Posts
    20,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    There are reasons many contemporary makers and big box brands donít produce bicycle frames, or design them, the way Dario and Pietro do. Itís because they canít. And if thatís not clear enough, Iíll rephrase it: Itís because theyíre unable to.

    I didnít need to spend time at the factory in December, or be pals with Dario for more than a quarter century to know this. The methodology and sequencing used to assemble a Pegoretti are far more time-proven than what passes for framebuilding in the internet era.

  5. #3405
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,480
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by skouri1 View Post
    why do you have such an axe to grind, Tristan?"

    [snip]

    I would defer to some of the real builders here (or more appropriately in another thread)
    No axe to grind at all. I asked a genuine (and I believe valid) question and didn't get any substantial answers so I tried to answer it myself using information and numbers.

  6. #3406
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    No axe to grind at all. I asked a genuine (and I believe valid) question and didn't get any substantial answers so I tried to answer it myself using information and numbers.
    I have a number of further thoughts to chew on regarding stack/reach in general - but they aren't specific to Pegoretti's, so let's get a thread going in the appropriate place......
    Dan in Oregon

  7. #3407
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    2,092
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    Stack and Reach are the best tools we have for comparing two frames from different manufacturers or comparing two frames of different size to see how they will compare to each other. It's an extremely simple X-Y coordinate pair.

    Stack and Reach eliminates seattube-angle from the conversation. This is a good thing as seattube-angle can confuse things, as in your text. It also eliminates bottom bracket drop.
    Isn’t eliminating setback and saddle placement on the rails a huge problem. The reach to the bars (and weight distribution) could swing massively even if stack and reach were the same. I always like measuring saddle to bars to set up my bikes...stack and reach don’t tell me much in that regard.
    Jason Babcock

  8. #3408
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    3,779
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbabcock View Post
    Isn’t eliminating setback and saddle placement on the rails a huge problem. The reach to the bars (and weight distribution) could swing massively even if stack and reach were the same. I always like measuring saddle to bars to set up my bikes...stack and reach don’t tell me much in that regard.
    They should tell you enough as a starter, though.

    Your saddle should always be setup relative to your BB, then your front end follows from that - if you know where the saddle is in relation to the BB then the setback is already sorted; and seat angle becomes more of a guide as to how to manage that saddle position (i.e. a slacker seat angle may mean an inline post Vs a setback post on a steeper seat angle).

    From there, the stack and reach gives you a basic guide to how to setup the front end accordingly (i.e. how to manage your saddle-to-bar reach via stem lengths and angles etc.).

    Simplistically, stack & reach is a "will it fit?" summary answer - then the geometry enables you to confirm the fine detail of that fit, and (some of) the nuances of the bike.

  9. #3409
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    19
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbabcock View Post
    Isn’t eliminating setback and saddle placement on the rails a huge problem. The reach to the bars (and weight distribution) could swing massively even if stack and reach were the same. I always like measuring saddle to bars to set up my bikes...stack and reach don’t tell me much in that regard.
    You can have the same saddle to bar but that doesnít guarantee the bb will be at the same place. Assuming reasonable STA, the saddle can always be brought to the preferred place by changing rail position. Once your are properly seated then stack/reach will exactly determine the rest of the fit.

    A taller rider will need more space both behind and in front of the bb. By having such short reach in larger sizes the Peg geometry seems to encourage progressively longer stems and bigger drop. You could increase saddle setback to get more space but thatís usually not a good idea.
     

  10. #3410
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    There are reasons many contemporary makers and big box brands don’t produce bicycle frames, or design them, the way Dario and Pietro do. It’s because they can’t. And if that’s not clear enough, I’ll rephrase it: It’s because they’re unable to.

    I didn’t need to spend time at the factory in December, or be pals with Dario for more than a quarter century to know this. The methodology and sequencing used to assemble a Pegoretti are far more time-proven than what passes for framebuilding in the internet era.
    ^
    Hear this and move on.
    When I ordered my custom one, I gave to Dario the body measurements he asked for and he did it right. And that was not a surprise for me.
    Andrea "Gattonero" Cattolico, head mechanic @Condor Cycles London


    "Caron, non ti crucciare:
    vuolsi cosž colŗ dove si puote
    ciÚ che si vuole, e piý non dimandare"

  11. #3411
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by skouri1 View Post
    why do you have such an axe to grind, Tristan?...
    I believe he's genuinely interested, though such matter can only be discussed up to a certain point.
    Look, I'm the guy who's in charge of the boiler room: I don't go to the Captain asking him why he took that route, and he won't ask me why the boiler is fixed that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
    ....
    Pegoretti as a brand has a lot of old-world charm and I'm sure a large part of that charm is some of the haphazardness.
    The little I knew from Dario and his life, I can guarantee you that everything that would really mayter to him was very carefully planned, and you couldn't get him into being wrong.
    Andrea "Gattonero" Cattolico, head mechanic @Condor Cycles London


    "Caron, non ti crucciare:
    vuolsi cosž colŗ dove si puote
    ciÚ che si vuole, e piý non dimandare"

  12. #3412
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts, United States
    Posts
    8,487
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    There are reasons many contemporary makers and big box brands donít produce bicycle frames, or design them, the way Dario and Pietro do. Itís because they canít. And if thatís not clear enough, Iíll rephrase it: Itís because theyíre unable to.

    I didnít need to spend time at the factory in December, or be pals with Dario for more than a quarter century to know this. The methodology and sequencing used to assemble a Pegoretti are far more time-proven than what passes for framebuilding in the internet era.
    That was Richard Sachs, by the way. He's been designing and building bicycles for a while now and people seem to think they're pretty well done.

    From my point of view as a consumer: I own two Pegoretti frames, one stock and one that Dario designed for me after a personal fitting. All I can offer is that my stock Pegoretti is my favorite bike ever.

    love and respo 03.09.12 #2.jpg
    GO!

  13. #3413
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Eastern Vermont, White River Junction-Hanover, NH area
    Posts
    1,384
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Dario Pegoretti

    Has anybody seen any Tazza Ivory frames in the wild yet? Above Category has photos of one built up and it looks better than I thought it would.

    So how many Peg dealers are there in the US now? There's AC, BiKyle in PA, Lakeside in Portland (Lake Oswego), Summer Cycles (no inventory info on website), and Dreamride maybe? I think Belmont Wheelworks sold out of all of their stock.
     

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •