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Thread: Colnago

  1. #901
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by ant_tip View Post
    Campagnolo 12-speed crank technical manual still tells to install the c-clip. It's needed to keep the DS bearing (and the crank) firmly in place. The wavy washer just applies some preload to the NDS bearing. If the c-clip is not used, the DS bearing can move left and right, wear the cup loose over time and affect shifting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    Just a thought...you haven’t forgotten the circlip on the drive side BB cup, have you? Omitting that could result in enough movement to allow the crank to shift against the spring, and then suck.
    The only two times I have seen an U.T. crank coming undone was: 1- a S.R. one where they botched the Ti bolt then reused it (and it snapped, obviously), 2- can't remember the groupset but the central steel bolt was so corroded that it gave up, and the Lh crank came off without the bearing (which stayed rusty with the Lh cup).

    Seriously, the c-clip is nowhere near a "safety clip", it size tells you that will never withstand the torque while pedalling. The only reason for it to exist, is when assembling/reassembling the cranks, to keep the Rh crank in place while you are pushing the Lh crank against the wave-washer to make the Hirti joint in contact between the two cranks. If the spring is not installed, you need to keep pushed the Rh crank with your body because you're not meant to have 3 working hands.

    When the crank is used, while cycling, the c-clip has no use because the inner face of the Rh bearing goes to a dead-stop with the BB cup, its outer face is not meant to move unless you have a wrong width of the BB shell and the wave-washer is not compressed enough (so isn't really preloading).
    This is very evident in the Poter-Torque cranks, too: when the Rh crank&axle are not pushed in correctly you are not able to install the c-clip, and if you insist and try to fit the Lh crank with its wave-washer&seal you will notice the latter goes squashed flat and sinks into the Lh BB cup, this created a lot of drag. While the Rh BB cup shows the seal on the crank bearing has a gap because hasn't reached its correct position.
    Andrea "Gattonero" Cattolico, head mechanic @Condor Cycles London


    "Caron, non ti crucciare:
    vuolsi così colà dove si puote
    ciò che si vuole, e più non dimandare"

  2. #902
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Thanks for the confirmation, Andrea - no offence to the posts above, but they’re basically implying that Campagnolo are happy to produce out of spec crank axles and frame companies are willingly producing out of spec BB shells; and that this pathetic little clip resolves either or both. Nah, sorry, doesn’t wash.

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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by RichTheRoadie View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation, Andrea - no offence to the posts above, but they’re basically implying that Campagnolo are happy to produce out of spec crank axles and frame companies are willingly producing out of spec BB shells; and that this pathetic little clip resolves either or both. Nah, sorry, doesn’t wash.
    I’m unconvinced you understand the function of circlips. On bicycles, they hold up rider weight at the base of a Reverb, considerably greater load than you would ever see laterally in pedalling torque; in most vehicles, they keep your wheel bearings and CV joints from displacing laterally (at least, they do on BMWs).

    I don’t think anyone is implying any shame on sainted Campagnolo, or that Colnago’s uniquely manufactured (read: normal) BB shells are somehow “out of spec.” But the idea that any two shells are always going to be dead-nuts on 68 mm is laughable. I faced hundreds of titanium shells that warp in welding, hundreds more painted shells that must be brought down to bare metal and are then...a different width than 68 mm. Like, maybe 67.964 mm. As a further example, Campagnolo gives Compatible BB shell width specs in their paper manuals, a range with which their system is compatible. (I don’t have one handy, but it’s there.)

    Shimano adjusts along the spindle, many 30 mm spindles and all DUB cranks have preload collars. BB30 has used wave springs and/or shims since the beginning. I’d wager if you pushed your cranks left to right you’ll get some movement against the wave spring. This will be replicated by your front derailleur, as it “pushes” the chain from the small ring into the ramps inside the big chainring. I’d also wager if you had installed your crank correctly with the circlip spec’d by sainted Campagnolo, you would not have this movement. (And as one further example, try to remove your crank with this “pathetic little clip” installed. It’s not a safety thing; it’s a function thing. Note that there’s another circlip on the BB spindle to prevent the DS bearing drifting the other direction.) You seem to have taken this fact as a personal insult. But hey, it’s your resale value - never mind your ride. Suit yourself.

    And Andrea, as a professional courtesy, one pro wrench to another, I won’t question you fundamentally. But I suggest you re-examine this function of this circlip. It’s most certainly not an installation aid.
     

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    Default Re: Colnago

    Hey guys, chill out a bit.
    We're not here to give blame to this or that. See my post above, it says "the c-clip is nowhere near a safety clip".

    When I say its reason to exist is an installation aid is because I like to get things right from boot: if the BB shell width is correct your cranks will have basically no movement because the wave-washer is already preloaded and won't make the while assembly to move towards the Rh side.
    It is indeed true that lots of frames are out of spec post-welding and do not get corrected. If the manufacturer hasn't done it, the mechanic has to, and if the frame is titanium send them a bill for a new cutter
    As far as shimming the BB cups to compensate a narrow BB shell that's very easy with common cassette spacers if the shell is a BSA thread. There have been cases where I have seen two wave-washers installed and that is a clear sign that the previous builder/whoever did not take any measurements into account, and that is not good!
    Andrea "Gattonero" Cattolico, head mechanic @Condor Cycles London


    "Caron, non ti crucciare:
    vuolsi così colà dove si puote
    ciò che si vuole, e più non dimandare"

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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    I’m unconvinced you understand the function of circlips. On bicycles, they hold up rider weight at the base of a Reverb, considerably greater load than you would ever see laterally in pedalling torque; in most vehicles, they keep your wheel bearings and CV joints from displacing laterally (at least, they do on BMWs).
    Sure mate, but here we have a c-clip that works only by two little prongs against the bearing, it is not a "real" c-clip that would make contact on at least 70% of the bearing OD, or even an e-clip will have three points of contact which are much larger than a spring wire anyway. A good example are BB30 bearings held by their clips, this makes over 95% of contact with the bearing, for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    Ithe idea that any two shells are always going to be dead-nuts on 68 mm is laughable. I faced hundreds of titanium shells that warp in welding, hundreds more painted shells that must be brought down to bare metal and are then...a different width than 68 mm. Like, maybe 67.964 mm. As a further example, Campagnolo gives Compatible BB shell width specs in their paper manuals, a range with which their system is compatible. (I don’t have one handy, but it’s there.)
    I agree with you, a 68.0mm BB shell is not to be found and frankly pointless. If I was to find one, I'd face it anyway to 67.8 or somewhere near that and add a 0.5mm spacer between the frame and the Lh BB cup.
    IIRC, the Campag spec is +-0.5mm from the 68.0mm but for me it's too generous and I'd rather have a finite shell being a fraction wider than narrower. A wave-washer has to be compressed half-way to make its work, otherwise it's just ornamental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    Shimano adjusts along the spindle, many 30 mm spindles and all DUB cranks have preload collars. BB30 has used wave springs and/or shims since the beginning. I’d wager if you pushed your cranks left to right you’ll get some movement against the wave spring. This will be replicated by your front derailleur, as it “pushes” the chain from the small ring into the ramps inside the big chainring. I’d also wager if you had installed your crank correctly with the circlip spec’d by sainted Campagnolo, you would not have this movement. (And as one further example, try to remove your crank with this “pathetic little clip” installed. It’s not a safety thing; it’s a function thing. Note that there’s another circlip on the BB spindle to prevent the DS bearing drifting the other direction.)
    The wave-washer for the U.T/P.T. cranks is to give preload to the whole assembly, this is because Campag wanted the narrowest possible Q-Factor and the biggest heel clearance they could get in the center of the crank, hence no room for a proper form of axial play adjustment.
    If you want my opinion, it's not great to rely on a wave-washer, but again is an installation aid: you want to spot trouble right away, and if you omit the c-clip on the Rh BB cup you ought to not have any movement to be concerned of. Of course, if your chain rubs on the derailleur because the whole assembly is moving then something is not good there.
    And the "proper" c-clip that sits in the ID of the Rh bearing ought to never make its work: that bearing works with their ID in tension by light interference with the crank axle, so is not meant to move at all from its dedicated position to avoid fouling the chainline regardless of the whole crank assembly position (you may notice that there's a bigger gap between the Rh crank bearing and its external seal).
    Andrea "Gattonero" Cattolico, head mechanic @Condor Cycles London


    "Caron, non ti crucciare:
    vuolsi così colà dove si puote
    ciò che si vuole, e più non dimandare"

  6. #906
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    Default Re: Colnago

    By the way, I do leave the clip fitted nevertheless, those are the two of my bikes I could take a pic now



    (yep, this last one is the "everyday" bike and gets lots of miles in any weather)
    Andrea "Gattonero" Cattolico, head mechanic @Condor Cycles London


    "Caron, non ti crucciare:
    vuolsi così colà dove si puote
    ciò che si vuole, e più non dimandare"

  7. #907
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by Gattonero View Post
    (you may notice that there's a bigger gap between the Rh crank bearing and its external seal).
    Hat gap is to clear those two prongs, leaving them inside the system seal, Hard up against the outer race of the bearing. I recognize it’s not as robust as a wheel-bearing circlip, but I can’t envision how the thing would fail, especially under anything like normal cycling conditions. Certainly no one would induce lateral force sufficient to break two piece of 10g spring steel; neither of us, I’m sure, has ever seen then bent (and they’d be a pain to remove if they were...). Perhaps you think the cup itself would fail? But then, if the two prongs wouldn’t break, which we know won’t happen because we’ve never even seen them bent, it would have to break half the circumference of the cup off, because the circlip fits in a race.

    At the very least, this piece is more than sufficient to resist the action of the front derailleur against the chainrings, thereby allowing the system to shift as normal. Again, even a mostly compressed wave spring still allows some degree of lateral movement. Hence this circlip, combined with its mate on the crank spindle, prevents lateral movement in the cranks.

    In other news, here’s another sideways picture of my excellent EPS. Which features that circlip and shifts great, even against the ugly leverage of the inimitable DA 9K front derailleur. Wish I could figure out pictures of bikes on the internet.

    737C5DF6-3E8B-463C-B795-CB81023FC888.jpg53A17182-235A-4348-A662-CAF40323FB43.jpg
     

  8. #908
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    I’d wager if you pushed your cranks left to right you’ll get some movement against the wave spring.
    No - not on either of my bikes. And yes, I tested because I was curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    I’d also wager if you had installed your crank correctly with the circlip spec’d by sainted Campagnolo, you would not have this movement. (And as one further example, try to remove your crank with this “pathetic little clip” installed. It’s not a safety thing; it’s a function thing.
    Out of curiosity, I installed the clip to see if it did resolve the issue. It didn't. As previously noted, the whole system shifts perfectly and runs silently the whole time, aside from the occasional random shift that somehow grabs the chain and slams it into the chain stay. Believe me, I hoped your theory would work, despite not believing that the clip carries any real function besides assisting assembly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applesauce View Post
    You seem to have taken this fact as a personal insult. But hey, it’s your resale value - never mind your ride. Suit yourself.
    No personal insult taken. I even took your advice (as per above).

    Can we just agree to disagree and move on? I'd normally post a nice pic to get things back to where they belong on a gallery thread, but I don't have a new one worth posting, sorry!

  9. #909
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by Gattonero View Post
    Hey guys, chill out a bit.
    We're not here to give blame to this or that. See my post above, it says "the c-clip is nowhere near a safety clip".

    When I say its reason to exist is an installation aid is because I like to get things right from boot: if the BB shell width is correct your cranks will have basically no movement because the wave-washer is already preloaded and won't make the while assembly to move towards the Rh side.
    It is indeed true that lots of frames are out of spec post-welding and do not get corrected. If the manufacturer hasn't done it, the mechanic has to, and if the frame is titanium send them a bill for a new cutter
    As far as shimming the BB cups to compensate a narrow BB shell that's very easy with common cassette spacers if the shell is a BSA thread. There have been cases where I have seen two wave-washers installed and that is a clear sign that the previous builder/whoever did not take any measurements into account, and that is not good!
    Yeah, I'd check this. Remove everything and measure the BB shell with calipers. Add a thin spacer to compensate for any amount under spec and then replace the wavy washer with a new one. I usually replace wavy washers whenever I do something major to the BB. Or switch a crank from one bike to another.

    Best way to test for movement on Campagnolo cranks is to wrap two hands around the LH arm and ND chain stay and squeeze.

    I'd also check chainline, look at chainring teeth, and check front derailleur adjustment. I haven't worked on 12v Campagnolo but I'd want whatever click that drops the chain down to the small ring to be slightly more outboard at finish.

    Otherwise just chuck the whole thing in the bin.
    Last edited by j44ke; 5 Days Ago at 09:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by RichTheRoadie View Post
    If there's one thing I love about electronically geared disc brake bikes like that ^^ it's the cleanliness of the cable & hose setups.

    It's looking like I'll be keeping this C40 regardless of how long I actually ride it for - I'm currently reducing it's value ride by ride as there's one gear that snags the chain when I drop from the big ring to the inner ring once on each ride almost without fail, resulting in chips to the chain stay each time. I think I'm at 4 from 4 on recent rides. I keep forgetting to take note of which gear I'm in before it happens and which gear I try to shift to, to know when to expect it, though. Thankfully it is yet to be bad enough to actually result in full-blown chain suck; but there will soon be enough damage to have halved the kind of return I might have hoped for on it!

    Still, with a local shark mural and a Colnago in hand, this was inevitable:



    Shark 'nago! #facepalm
    Have you checked to see if the threaded bottom bracket sleeve in the carbon BB lug hasn't got movement as I remember seeing that happen to one or two older Colnago's where they separated?
     

  11. #911
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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by Sascha Roszak View Post
    Have you checked to see if the threaded bottom bracket sleeve in the carbon BB lug hasn't got movement as I remember seeing that happen to one or two older Colnago's where they separated?
    Indeed I have. That was the very first thing I checked when I first stripped the bike as I recalled stories of them loosening (the other risk on these is galvanic corrosion where the seat stay meets the dropout). There was no issue whatsoever - unsurprising, given that the bike was barely used before I took ownership.

    It happened again on today’s ride. It’s when I drop from the big ring to the inner ring, and I think it happens when I’m towards the top of the cassette too (but that may not matter). All I can think to do is to loosen the front mech cable tension slightly, or re-check the cage alignment - but I’m certain there’s no issue with that based on how well the system generally works and how quiet it is.

  12. #912
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    Default Re: Colnago

    I had the same issue on my old Merlin Cyrene with 10 speed Record. If I was changing from the 52 to the 39 while coming up to an incline after a steep decent it happened...and always on the same strip of road! I figured it was a cadence and gear change combined that caused it, I haven't been to that same place with 12 speed so not sure if it will happen again?
     

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    Default Re: Colnago

    Quote Originally Posted by Sascha Roszak View Post
    I haven't been to that same place with 12 speed so not sure if it will happen again?
    Ha! Let’s hope not!

    I had to go into the garage earlier so I snuck a look at the front mech - despite it shifting beautifully, it wasn’t as well setup as it could have been, so I tweaked it. Who knows if that’ll sort it, but it may do...

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