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Thread: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

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    Default Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    I've searched around and found nothing comprehensive on the subject...

    What are your thoughts on internal cable routing, and how should it be done?
    Full housing in a copper tube?
    Stops into the frame with bare cable inside, or cable ran through copper tube?
    Discourage at all costs?
    Should it be limited to brakes and not used for derailleurs?

    Not too late to quit while im ahead, seems like a few of you are bummed on it...

    Thank you for letting me glean some knowledge!
     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Taylor,
    I'm by no means an expert but heres what I know. The outcome is usually stunningly clean no matter which method you use. It's a high angle addition to any frame in my opinion, meaning that you get 100% effect for 125% effort. Having done two frames with the full housing thru brass tubes for the rear brake(disc) only, one just the top tube and the other the top tube and seat stay I can honestly say that I got it out of my system. I'm glad I did it for the knowledge but it doesn't just add a few steps to the building of the frame it also adds to the building up of the bike and more importantly it adds steps to the maintenence of the bike as well, which to me isn't always welcome YMMV of course. You should do it so you know how tetchy it can be and then just file it away in the 'can do' pile.
    good luck,
    Jake
     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    I've done this exactly once, so take this with a grain. I used an annealed stainless line which allowed a continuous piece of 5mm housing, perfect slip fit. The annealed state lets the line be bent easily by hand, no tools. I put a piece of housing in the stainless line prior to bending it.

    There's a McMaster-Carr part # for the stainless tube I used. I'd do some things a little different next time, mainly not filing the brake line flush with the top tube. I installed the line prior to building the front end, which lets me make sure the internal line isn't touching the main tube and that I got good brazing penetration (i.e. internal).

    As for whether this sort of thing is worth it... personally, no. It's a lot more labor for I think no real functional gain, but it looks cool. I'd do it again. I was worried about a mushy feel at the lever with the full length housing, which I've experienced on another bike that used top tube loop guides. I didn't notice that here. I think it's because the housing is entirely encapsulated by the stainless line so the housing can't squirm around. That's just a hunch though.

    Here's a few pics starting here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/palermo...7613460296173/
    Tom Palermo
    www.palermobicycles.com
    photos

    Palermo Bicycles
    steel bicycles & frame repairs
    Baltimore, MD

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    I only do rear brake top tube jet venting. I do them quite often. It adds 20-30 minutes total to the build. Many of my customers like the look of it and so do I. Worth it? Sure if you're charging for it.

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    tim (shamrock cycles/hmba trail) does a lot of it. it's one of the few framebuilding things we got to talk about at the big show. and he doesn't limit it to top tubes.

    couldn't quickly find the photos i wanted (the fork tim, the fork)--so this will suffice:




    zanc and i discussed it too as he had that wonderful cut-away frame, and the only internal tt bike i've had--had a rattle. we discussed the causes/solutions to the rattle.

    never send one out that rattles. and i'm for the full-housing route as tom mentions above. and he nailed that one--no squirming, thus no mushiness therefrom.

    >note< i have no installation experience and am mostly all mouth.






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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Here is my process. I did this one today. I was going to save it for FNL, but it's better served here I think. I use 9/32 x 0.014" wall brass tubing that I get from McMaster Carr that's made in the US by K S Engineering in Chicago.

    First I mark the points of entry on the tube.





    Then I mill the slots. I use a 5/16" endmill and make a 1.5 cm long slot. Then I use a 1/4" endmill and extend the slot 0.5 cm in each direction. I'm left with 2.5 cm long slot.







    I pre-bend the tube. When I'm lucky, it actually pops out the hole at the other end without much messing about.





    to be continued...
    Mike Zanconato
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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    I like to use the braze-ons because I like the look. Flux it up, light the torch and have at it with some 56 silver.



    Rinse it off in hot water...



    Finish it off...



    And you're good to go.



    Hope that helps! I really like doing these. It's a mix with my customers. Some dig it and some don't.
    Mike Zanconato
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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    well I am going to throw a chicken into the pack of dingos

    I am not a fan of the full length outer cassing going through the top tube in a brass or stainless tube
    as the cassing moves and pulls the rear brake like a campy single pivot calliper off centre.
    A zip tie around the cassing at the exit point will stop it moving but crikey it looks disgusting. {some thing that team mechanics have to do regularly}
    The only way I do it is
    I machine {lathe} stainless tube sockets so the cable cassing terminates 10mm inside the top tube at both ends, the inner wire runs inside a brass tube that is connected to the stainless cable sockets. {all is brazed up}
    A stainless rounded plate goes over the lot and then all is finished off flush.
    Thus the cassing is cut to length, no slipping or movement takes place, so the cassing stays in it's graceful intended loop
    and no cassing rattle inside the braze tube.
    Always lube gear and brake inners with "Slick Honey" the best stuff!
    This takes a few hours to do {I charge $300}
    but this is the only way I will do it.
    Also I have seen top tubes fail in frames that have had true heavy use when there is just a hole and tube brazed in as one is cutting holes in the .45, or .40mm section of the top tube. Yeah, I know many will say, I never have a problem etc.........
    but I have seen them fail in other brands
    So I never will go there.
    Just the way I operate. A failure in 15 -20 years is too many
    Let the eyes roll
    and them all say Dazza is a nutter.................
    but I think it is the best way
    and never will I do gear cables inside tubes, it is bad enough getting a postive gear change out of 10 and 11 speed groupos let alone adding bends and curves to the cable path and thus adding to the elasticity of the inner wire[
    and for goodness sake, get the loops right. Even bloody Cevelo cannot get their cable entry/exit points correct!
    ATTACH]18700[/ATTACH]2 Internal cable (Large).JPG3 Brazed up.JPG4 Checking the loop.JPG5 file and polish.JPG.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Cheers Dazza
    The rock star is dying. And it's a small tragedy. Rock stars have blogs now. I have no use for that kind of rock star.
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    Darrell Llewellyn McCulloch

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    did dazza just call me a dingo?*

    wow, thanks for the great posts mates. superbly done.

    *i do like the chicken.

    and to sum up:

     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Sorry, I'm photo challenged. That said, I use brake tunnels regularly on my road bikes. The cheap simple solution iinvolves a length of brake-line from NAPA. Ya can find that anywhere, it bends easily by hand, and is stiff in the bike. Oh, and its pretty stiff.

    I don't have mills or such. I make a hole with a portable cordless drill (nice 18v variety). Then I get a big bastard rat-tail file to create the shape/length I want.

    Of all fittings, this is the one that I think really must be done prior brazing joints (although I try to do all fittings first).

    My tube is bent like a very lazy W, to help facilitate threading it into position. Usually pops right in on the first try - but I think that the virgin voyage was a bit of a struggle.

    I tend to use Filet Pro silver, so I'm keeping the temps down near the thinner parts of the tube. Build a nice filet inside between the cable tunnel and the top tube. Haven't had any problems to date with my top tubes (knock on wood) - I think that properly brazed in, the tunnel can act as its own reinforcer to the holes in the top tube.

    My brake cables don't seem to slip around or pull on the brake arms. A shot of WD40 makes it easier to push the cable housing through the tunnel, but its not a necessity.

    Pros and Cons?
    Pro's: 1) It looks nice. 2) it keeps salty sweat off the cable. 3) Lots of riders like tunnels and seem to consider them a bene.
    Con's: 1) More work (but not much in the bigger scheme of things); 2) One more opportunity to mess up? 3) I'm not thinking of a number 3.

    Re gear cables, I don't think that most bottom brackets easily facilitate running the gear cables internally. If I had to do so, I'd probably go without housings, and avoid piercing the down tube. Haven't done it yet, so for now, I'm not telling how I'd accomplish that.

    Pro's are probably the same.

    Con's are: 1) More work. 2) Fooling with the downtube requires more care. 3) Indexed shifters can be fussy with cable tensions/friction that can come from unusual routings.
     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    here's the bike i was thinking of. iirc fd cable through top-tube, brake and rd cables through downtube, front brake through fork leg. tim likes doing internal cables yo.

    Attached Images Attached Images
     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Whoa, thanks a bunch! I think I might just do the brake cable with full housing internal through the top tube... and I'll just do some subtle stops for the derailleurs and not bother with routing those internally, as this will be ten speed most likely, ether that or old xt!
    While searching, I saw Hampsten commented something a while ago saying he was going to do a rant about internal soon... ???

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    I like the variability for cable entry/exit. As someone who prefers motorcycle lever chirality, I think it is preferable to have the rear brake cable enter on the R but exit on the L.
     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    I mostly like internal hose guides because they are silent compared to anything else. I haven't done any for cables yet, but the next bike will have at least an internal cable, maybe two or three. Of course, they look sexy too but the main reason I like it is that it is silent on the trail:


     

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Dazza, won't the cable gradually saw away at that bends you have in the brass tube?
    FRAMEBUILDING PARTS FOR SALE!

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine Cycles View Post
    Dazza, won't the cable gradually saw away at that bends you have in the brass tube?
    Yes of course
    after about 127 years
    Cheers Dazza
    The rock star is dying. And it's a small tragedy. Rock stars have blogs now. I have no use for that kind of rock star.
    Nick Cave

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    Darrell Llewellyn McCulloch

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Sorry to bump an older thread, but I'm wondering if there's a source for cable stop/ferrules similar to the kind that Nova sells w/ their internal routing kit:

    NOV_150_IRGD_SET_NEW-06.jpg

    Nova only offers the cable stops as part of the housing kit, and I don't really need the tubing.

    Thanks
    Michael
    michael catano humble frameworks
    chicago, il, usa merci

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    Ceeway

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    isn't that just tubing with an ID of 5.5mm?
    Cheers
    Kevin

    PolyTube Cycles

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    Default Re: Internal Cable Routing: Styles, Pros & Cons...

    +2 napa brake line.
     

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