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Thread: frame building and eggs atmo -

  1. #1
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    Default frame building and eggs atmo -

    the organic nature of frame building - taking a pile of parts, some tools,
    experience, and a vision - has always confounded me atmo. i'm way more
    comfortable with it now than i was when i started. but it often made me
    squirm as i was trying to figure out the dance. no two are alike. and some
    parts of one can be so very right, while the rest of it is just good enough.
    getting it nailed from end to end isn't possible, and i surrendered to that
    notion years ago. in some ways it's like the accuracy of a quartz watch
    compared to the idiosyncrasies of a mechanical one. i say in some ways,
    because i really don't know watches well enough to know why a drug store
    example may keep more accurate time than one labored over by a skilled
    watchmaker. oh, and in many ways i don't care.

    but i do know about frames, and no matter what you bring to the table, and
    no matter how hard you try, or how on your game you are, no two are alike.
    alas, duplication and repeatability are just dreams atmo.

    is it okay to articulate these differences and even celebrate them? since i
    can't seem to get to that elusive other side, i reckon it is.

     
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post

    because i really don't know watches well enough to know why a drug store
    example may keep more accurate time than one labored over by a skilled
    watchmaker.
    oh, the spring unwinds differently due to variences in the elongation of the metal as per the fluctuations in temperature - that and friction, mostly. seriously, though - some bikes are a joy, they fall together. others linger in the jig, have parts that end up as recycling fodder or go into the fork sculpture, or get cut up and thrown away or given to friends logo-less. it is really wild, how different builds unfold. throw in custom bending and it compounds. it's like solving puzzles, only you are designing the puzzle WHILE you solve it. starting a new one from scratch today. rock on, steve.
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    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
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    how come we can't get those 4/5/6 park wrenches any more?

    i first learned to braze from tim isaac at match. tim said: "brazing is like cooking eggs. when it's done more heat won't make it more done."
    Steve Hampsten
    www.hampsten.blogspot.com
    "hey, we got grenades!"
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    It seems to me that the phrase "no two are alike" can be applied to many things we buy and own.

    I used to own an old and rare car called a Lotus Cortina and I did a full restoration on it and had it very far apart. When I got into the guts of the car I started seeing more an more hand work. There were grease pen notes and arrows showing where flaws were and subsequent hammer blow marks that fixed the issue. File marks, the slip of a hand drill and the skidding swirl marks it left. Even 40 years after it was wade there was evidence of the men that made it all over if you knew what to look for. When it was rebuilt great care was taken to be sure to not clean up or "fix" these things.

    I'm sure when it was made those defects that I worked so hard to discover and protect where not something the workers were proud of. They weren't looking 40 years down the road and thinking how much I would covet the evidence in the metal of the skilled but imperfect men that made the car. They were defects pure and simple. But to me they were a way for me to connect to those men that all those years ago worked hard and long on the car.

    I suspect and hope that something similar happens with my/our work years down the road. Just like the workers at Lotus that made Lotus Cortina #1839 in June of 1965 didn't want any defects in their car I don't want any defects in my bikes. I don't purposely leave my mark anywhere but there's no doubt that there is a mark and I hope that at some point someone will celebrate it. It's all part of the charm of something being handmade. That connection is important to me and I suspect to others. So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

    Dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by hampco View Post
    how come we can't get those 4/5/6 park wrenches any more?
    i think you can, but they have a sucky plastic "handle". steve.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
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    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    i think you can, but they have a sucky plastic "handle". steve.
    mine is sitting on my bench just like yours, with the blue only left on 6mm. probably for the same reasons.

    some one tried to walk out of my shop with it in their pocket the other day. almost had to bonk them on the head with the dead blow.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    It seems to me that the phrase "no two are alike" can be applied to many things we buy and own.

    I used to own an old and rare car called a Lotus Cortina and I did a full restoration on it and had it very far apart. When I got into the guts of the car I started seeing more an more hand work. There were grease pen notes and arrows showing where flaws were and subsequent hammer blow marks that fixed the issue. File marks, the slip of a hand drill and the skidding swirl marks it left. Even 40 years after it was wade there was evidence of the men that made it all over if you knew what to look for. When it was rebuilt great care was taken to be sure to not clean up or "fix" these things.

    I'm sure when it was made those defects that I worked so hard to discover and protect where not something the workers were proud of. They weren't looking 40 years down the road and thinking how much I would covet the evidence in the metal of the skilled but imperfect men that made the car. They were defects pure and simple. But to me they were a way for me to connect to those men that all those years ago worked hard and long on the car.

    I suspect and hope that something similar happens with my/our work years down the road. Just like the workers at Lotus that made Lotus Cortina #1839 in June of 1965 didn't want any defects in their car I don't want any defects in my bikes. I don't purposely leave my mark anywhere but there's no doubt that there is a mark and I hope that at some point someone will celebrate it. It's all part of the charm of something being handmade. That connection is important to me and I suspect to others. So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

    Dave
    thanks for this post, Dave. i've been thinking about this stuff allot, but i could never express it as well as you just did. sooooo.......here's what i've been thinking about, and here's a picture to TRY to show what i mean - do people appreciate when something is NAILED? do people appreciate when they can just see that a feature is pulled off and the builder checked it off the list and moved on rather then just handjobbed it to death? i think about this allot esp. as a fillet brazing builder, where unlike TIG or lugs where it's hard to hide anything, a "builder" can lay a really sucky bird-poop braze and roast the tube and polish into something visually passable with some bondo and a good painter........so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on? thanks to all, esp. E-ritchey for a great thread! steve.
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    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on?
    i'll answer that by pasting in this thought - one that hit me so deep that
    i xeroxed it and added to the cover of our handmade wedding invitations
    back - what, 13 or so years ago atmo!

     
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    from E-ritchey's post "the trouble they took for something that cannot be seen"..............how about the art shown in somthing done so many times that the competence obtained through repitition shows.......the mastery of the hand & torch vs. the mastery of the file.........an unfiled Ross Schafer fillet brazed Salsa.........it's like drystacking rock walls.........i used to love that shit. i was the "rock guy". they would drop me off with a trailer full of rocks and leave me alone. there's rock work all over town that i look at all the time that i did. it's aging really well.......sure, you could stucco it over and paint it blue..........enough sentimental ranting, it's time to get on with the doing of the thing. steve
    Last edited by steve garro; 01-16-2009 at 01:21 PM. Reason: further addled thought.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    .... So while I don't think folks celebrate flaws in work they do celebrate the fact that these things are made by living breathing men that are not perfect............ and those flaws are just evidence of that. That to me is something I think everyone can relate to.

    Dave
    Even things made by machine are not perfect. It's all a matter of resolution. As is everything in life.
    "It's better to not know so much than to know so many things that ain't so." -- Josh Billings, 1885

    A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but also those aligned against us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    thanks for this post, Dave. i've been thinking about this stuff allot, but i could never express it as well as you just did. sooooo.......here's what i've been thinking about, and here's a picture to TRY to show what i mean - do people appreciate when something is NAILED? do people appreciate when they can just see that a feature is pulled off and the builder checked it off the list and moved on rather then just handjobbed it to death? i think about this allot esp. as a fillet brazing builder, where unlike TIG or lugs where it's hard to hide anything, a "builder" can lay a really sucky bird-poop braze and roast the tube and polish into something visually passable with some bondo and a good painter........so, i submit for your critique this dropout shot right out of the dunktank. how much work would you builders do before checking this off the list & moving on? thanks to all, esp. E-ritchey for a great thread! steve.

    Of course, we need to see the other one to make sure the slots in phase before critiquing. <grin> Put dynafile on those ends and really give a nice scallop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archibald View Post
    Even things made by machine are not perfect. It's all a matter of resolution. As is everything in life.
    nails it atmo.

    and there's something to the routine of picking up yet another pile of
    parts and making them fit yet another work order that, on one hand is
    a chance to redeem oneself for all past flaws, and on the other hand
    realize that it's not worth the effort since the material always tells you
    what it will be.

    'would make a good koan brothers film huh.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    nails it atmo.'would make a good koan brothers film huh.
    Is that a double meaning/fruedian slip - the spelling or misspelling of the name "Koen".

    Koan -

    koan |ˈkōˌän|
    noun
    a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    Is that a double meaning/fruedian slip - the spelling or misspelling of the name "Koen".

    Koan -

    koan |ˈkōˌän|
    noun
    a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.

    dave
    yes - you get me like a book atmo.
    'was intentional.

    ps and it's coen brothers iirc imho.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    nails it atmo.

    and there's something to the routine of picking up yet another pile of
    parts and making them fit yet another work order that, on one hand is
    a chance to redeem oneself for all past flaws, and on the other hand
    realize that it's not worth the effort since the material always tells you
    what it will be.

    'would make a good koan brothers film huh.
    or straight out of Cormac Mc Carthy...........steve.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Goodrich View Post
    Of course, we need to see the other one to make sure the slots in phase before critiquing. <grin> Put dynafile on those ends and really give a nice scallop.
    and loose the scallop made by the torch? it took me 150+ frames to get that right.........:cheers: steve.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    yes - you get me like a book atmo.
    'was intentional.

    ps and it's coen brothers iirc imho.
    than what was my slip?

    Dave
    D. Kirk
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    www.kirkframeworks.com

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    than what was my slip?

    Dave
    hi - no slip.
    i was saying that you had me right with the double entendre.
    that means two entendres in french.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    hi - no slip.
    i was saying that you had me right with the double entendre.
    that means two entendres in french.

    Cool.........thanks for explaining that in a way that's not patronizing.

    That means not being talked down to.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com

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    Yes that is sarcasm........... either that or I'm a @#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%.

    Dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com

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