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Thread: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockwork View Post
    I used to angle the slot but now I prefer to bend the dropout.
    I tried bending the Columbus style front dropouts from Nova in a vice. Just a really little, very slight bend while clamped, and I felt a fracture. Very uncertain about what I felt, there was no way I was going to use it, so out of curiosity I went to bend it back and it quickly broke in two.

    I ordered a new set of dropouts and angled the slots instead.

    Perhaps it is a cast vs. forged thing... these were cast.

    COL_DO_FVF_WOE.jpg
    Michael Gordon
    Shop Dog Cycles
    www.shopdogcycles.com
    Highland Park, IL

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Gordon View Post
    I tried bending the Columbus style front dropouts from Nova in a vice. Just a really little, very slight bend while clamped, and I felt a fracture. Very uncertain about what I felt, there was no way I was going to use it, so out of curiosity I went to bend it back and it quickly broke in two.

    I ordered a new set of dropouts and angled the slots instead.

    Perhaps it is a cast vs. forged thing... these were cast.

    COL_DO_FVF_WOE.jpg
    I'm a newbie, but I've taken a few materials classes and I would guess that you're correct in thinking it was the casting vs. forging issue.

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    I can't imagine any sugnificant loss of strength to a steel dropout from bending it some 5-6 degrees or so.
    Anyway, I don't know if what I'm doing is right, but I braze the dropouts first and then bend them.
    Evgeniy Vodolazskiy (Eugene for English-speaking =)

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    I'd do that prep first. That's a lot of stress on a new joint.

    There are a bunch of different ways to skin this cat- I'm generally in the "slot-to-fit" camp.

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Estlund View Post
    I'd do that prep first. That's a lot of stress on a new joint.
    The joint is a couple of times thicker than the dropout, I'm not sure there is any stress to the joint at all. Besides, doesn't brass only get stronger with abuse? =)
    Evgeniy Vodolazskiy (Eugene for English-speaking =)

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    I'd be more worried about the thin wall of the chain stay where the brass terminates inside the stay. It may be academic, but if I'm bending things I like to stress them individually.

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by waterlaz View Post
    I can't imagine any sugnificant loss of strength to a steel dropout from bending it some 5-6 degrees or so.
    Anyway, I don't know if what I'm doing is right, but I braze the dropouts first and then bend them.
    I was quite shocked when I bent them and had the issue. It was a very slight bend, but it was also right up against the sharp edge of the vice jaw. Regardless, I am now in the camp of slot to fit, braze it up in the fork jig, then make only slight adjustments with frame end alignment tools post braze.
    Michael Gordon
    Shop Dog Cycles
    www.shopdogcycles.com
    Highland Park, IL

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    The traditional way is for the slot to follow the center-line of the stay. The dropout angle is produced, or cranked by hand, to mate with the slot. Don't braze the dropout part straight mated to an angled slot. If the part comes straight it's only (ONLY) because the vendor wanted to save a penny or half-second on the labor and machinery.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    That's true for softer forged dropouts. The same can't be said for Paragon dropouts and their super thick tabs.
    Mike Zanconato
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    The traditional way is for the slot to follow the center-line of the stay. The dropout angle is produced, or cranked by hand, to mate with the slot. Don't braze the dropout part straight mated to an angled slot. If the part comes straight it's only (ONLY) because the vendor wanted to save a penny or half-second on the labor and machinery.
    But surely there are lots of factors affecting the angle, for instance: wheel size, crown width, chainstay length, rear hub spacing?

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by William Chitham View Post
    But surely there are lots of factors affecting the angle, for instance: wheel size, crown width, chainstay length, rear hub spacing?
    That's always been the case atmo.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Certain dropouts, like Paragon Rockers, can't be bent so at some point you're (a general you, not any "you" in particular) going to have to learn to cut the stays with the appropriate angle.
    Will Neide (pronounced Nighty, like the thing worn to bed)

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Neide View Post
    Certain dropouts, like Paragon Rockers, can't be bent so at some point you're (a general you, not any "you" in particular) going to have to learn to cut the stays with the appropriate angle.
    If I were using these types, I'd be more inclined to reroute (as in reshape, curve, or bend) the stay so it engages the part head on rather than slot it at an angle. But that's just me thinking about the stay, the heat, and the asymmetry of the slotted area.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    If I were using these types, I'd be more inclined to reroute (as in reshape, curve, or bend) the stay so it engages the part head on rather than slot it at an angle. But that's just me thinking about the stay, the heat, and the asymmetry of the slotted area.
    You certainly could do that, but I think you'd be running into heel clearance issues. Especially when you start pushing the rear ends to 150+ mm. I just got a MTB frame in for repair that has a single bend chainstay and you can see he has lots of heel rub issues with the frame. The rear end is 135mm with tabbed sliders. The kind of bends you're thinking of wouldn't work in this particular set-up. This guy could really use an S bend so his heel stops brushing the chainstay.
    Will Neide (pronounced Nighty, like the thing worn to bed)

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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Neide View Post
    You certainly could do that, but I think you'd be running into heel clearance issues. Especially when you start pushing the rear ends to 150+ mm. I just got a MTB frame in for repair that has a single bend chainstay and you can see he has lots of heel rub issues with the frame. The rear end is 135mm with tabbed sliders. The kind of bends you're thinking of wouldn't work in this particular set-up. This guy could really use an S bend so his heel stops brushing the chainstay.
    Think outside the box. Or build a new box. Only the last several centimeters would have to be rearranged in order for the stay to engage an un-cranked dropout head on.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Old news from 2011: Firefly :: The Beginning :: Part 5 | Firefly Bicycles

    Since then majorly upgraded our methods, but this is the basic idea of how we (used to) slot our stays.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    What it comes down to is that with longer dropout designs to accommodate for discs pushing the heel interference point towards the bottom bracket, the ability to form/shape a tube to retain a centered slot is drastically reduced.

    "Traditional" methods of construction just do not lend themselves to the ever evolving requirements of mountain bike design...the new techniques and designs that accommodate for these needs ARE redefining "the box".

    What has not changed is the requirement for solid technical fabrication skills...think through your solutions and execute.

    rody
    Rody Walter
    Groovy Cycleworks...Custom frames with a dash of Funk!
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rody View Post
    <cut>
    "Traditional" methods of construction just do not lend themselves to the ever evolving requirements of mountain bike design...the new techniques and designs that accommodate for these needs ARE redefining "the box".
    Agreed and fully understood. I was addressing tabbed dropouts and their use.
    PS Not to get hung up on words, but "traditional" doesn't mean old, classic, or from the past.

    What has not changed is the requirement for solid technical fabrication skills...think through your solutions and execute.
    Folks need to be reminded of this often.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Neide View Post
    Certain dropouts, like Paragon Rockers, can't be bent so at some point you're (a general you, not any "you" in particular) going to have to learn to cut the stays with the appropriate angle.
    I have a set of the Paul Track Ends that are pretty thick. Should I assume they also can't be bent?
    Chris Dougherty
    Sacramento Ca
    Curious hobby builder.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Brazing Tab Type Dropouts

    Those things are short and stout- I'd be slotting at an angle.

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