CNC simulators and such

[WadePatton]

As I'm waiting to hear back from a modern precision shop about a job that i would like verymuch to get, and that the reason I'm there is because the local(er) guy can't justify the costs of training machine ops anymore. I'm getting as familiar as I can with the operation of CNC machines via the Youtube and some simulators I've downloaded.

Any you CNC guys have any input on that?

The actual job that I'm being considered for is "Process Engineer" but I need some shop time to learn where to send which and in what order. Seems pretty easy actually, just learning the company's computer system will be the most of it. The co-owner spent about 30 minutes with me on that stuff Monday this week, which is great, but I forgot the name of that particular program.

It's one that routes the work keeping up with material and labor costs along the way.

Any other insights appreciated too.

I'd like to get to run machines too, but if i get stuck in the office running a P/C...well it pays! And this way i can still write up my own parts to make.

Back to me (g-code) programming now.

oh and I'm running CNC Simulator Pro mostly. Example:

[Philster]

Can't help with the cnc stuff, but the program might be called Visual.

[WadePatton]

I suppose no one here uses CNC 'chinery. All manual eh? I understand for (bike making) shops, but I thought we'd has a few professional otherwise 'chinists.

[Mike Mcdermid]

I use volumill and wrote my own post for our Hurco a cnc simulator in the past I have used vericut but its really only of use when doing 5 axis work where the blisk you could potentially fuck up is about as valuable as a car and a crash could cost a few k damage to the machine
If your using cam software for simple jobs it's a bit overkill as most 2d prismatic parts can easily by coded by hand or even conversationally on the machine

When we cut a mold that can run into 10s of thousands of lines of code you would have no chance of writing


There's a very good book called the cnc programming manual I read about 15 years ago that's good simple instructional language for someone starting out


I spent lots of time using NX and catia in an F1 environment and whilst cnc generally works the same each controller and cam software has its own character quirks and tantrums, you learn these nuances and your golden

[EricKeller]

I suppose no one here uses CNC 'chinery. All manual eh? I understand for (bike making) shops, but I thought we'd has a few professional otherwise 'chinists.

I didn't really see a question that I could answer. I have a video of a machine running a program my boss and I wrote, but I can't post it, unfortunately. Our control lets us use trig in the control loop, really cuts down the temptation to use cad depending on the part. Right now we don't have any cad with a post for our machine anyway. I have also written program generators in matlab for the machine, but I haven't gotten too deep into that. I know a smart guy that does programming in excel.

About all I can say is that a program with any potential at all for doing damage, the smart operators test it while working the speed override setting like a brake pedal descending the alps.

[WadePatton]

The question was: Is there any CNC/CAD/CAM simulation sort of thing out there that anyone (real live 'chinist) can recommend as an "in between" step as I go from ZERO to having some actual familiarity with programming/operation of CNC tools?

Mostly so i can look smart and trainable to potential employers.

I have no delusions that G-code is absolute and universal. It is universally slightly different here and there is what everyone always says. I heard that the first time.

I have no delusions that they're going to say, hey throw something in there and see what your little program does.

I'm trying to find work in a field that might hold my attention long enough to get paid.

Also, i have no PC programming experience. I never went beyond a few lines of Basic on a TRS-80. But I did take Calculus in high school and college--then i got stupid and chased a law degree.

The video of the simulator in OP is the simulator I'm messing with. It's a free partial version with nag screens.

Also there's a lot of trade-school class video up on the 'tube and i've watched a shiz ton of that. I've learned a good bit, but at this point all i can do is simulate and memorize and test myself.

Home schoolin' yo. That's as far as my bucks take me.


and the minute i run out of CNC study materials, I'll start consuming the TIG stuff.

[WadePatton]

If i seemed a bit testy in ^^^ post, maybe i was. Was having a moment, and am freaked over 2nd contact (with potential employer) not happening yet.

I'm still looking up all those terms in Mike's reply. That's what threw me off the thread. I'm not a programmer, but am ready to become one.

Where to next?

Instead of learning all the nuances of every control system out there, I'm trying to focus on the backbone, more universal truths of the field.

Any guidance in that direction is appreciated. This is where hyper-focus offsets hypo-focus yo (and why my grades always sucked unless i was "into" the class).







...
totally nearly off topic, but part of my brain is boiling here:

"Guidance" as to my choice of field of endeavor will be ignored, as not one person ever (ever, and i mean ever) questioned the first choice and the years i burned chasing the degree to get that job (atty for the new folk). No matter what _other_ field i express interest in there's always 47 naysayers standing around sharing their negative wisdom. Screw that, this time i got it right. To wit: I have to make shit and i much prefer to make it from metal and to exacting standards.

[/rant]

[Jacques]

What kind of machines/controls would you be running?

Beyond acquiring a summary understanding of G code, you'll want to get familiar with the machines you'll be working with.

And also, stepping back, do you have a lot of manual machine experience? A process engineer's role is typically to select tooling, fixturing, toolpaths and make them come together efficiently to make parts happen. It sounds easy, mastercam spits out all the code, right? In my experience, working with programmers who don't have several years operating manual and cnc machines, they never learn the intricacies of cutting metals, workholding, feeds and speeds, tool engagement, chip load, materials, GDnT, etc. On the computer screen, everything cleans up nice, no chatter, distortion or burrs, everything's right on size, tools last forever but, transfer the program to the machine and you burn $500 worth of tooling in an afternoon and get a bunch of crap parts.

I guess what I'm saying is that if I had to relearn cnc machining, I'd focus less on learning g-code and more on everything else.

-J

[EricKeller]

contrary to what I may have posted elsewhere on this board, I think I'm a pretty decent machinist. I could probably make a living at it if I had to. But I feel overwhelmed by the stuff I don't know. For example, gdt

It is funny when I look over the machinist's shoulder and there is some outrageous tolerance on a drawing that obviously just has a tolerance on it because the engineer thought it had to have a tolerance. In our world, the machinist emails the engineer and says it's gonna cost, in the real world they often just quote it as is. All the quotes come in at outrageous prices and most of the time it gets paid.

[RickM]

What kind of machines/controls would you be running?

Beyond acquiring a summary understanding of G code, you'll want to get familiar with the machines you'll be working with.

And also, stepping back, do you have a lot of manual machine experience? A process engineer's role is typically to select tooling, fixturing, toolpaths and make them come together efficiently to make parts happen. It sounds easy, mastercam spits out all the code, right? In my experience, working with programmers who don't have several years operating manual and cnc machines, they never learn the intricacies of cutting metals, workholding, feeds and speeds, tool engagement, chip load, materials, GDnT, etc. On the computer screen, everything cleans up nice, no chatter, distortion or burrs, everything's right on size, tools last forever but, transfer the program to the machine and you burn $500 worth of tooling in an afternoon and get a bunch of crap parts.

I guess what I'm saying is that if I had to relearn cnc machining, I'd focus less on learning g-code and more on everything else.

-J

^^This. My experience was similar; I wrote control programs for finishing off cast parts....drilling, tapping, etc.. for a mfgr that was automating. I had lots of programming experience behind me that enabled me to grasp the concepts of the NC control language easily...but it was the shop foreman with 35 years machine shop experience that really made the whole operation click...since besides working as a millwright in a steel mill I didn't know jackshit about machine work, really. Snap off 50 drillbits and you realize that there's more to it all then just writing some code.

[WadePatton]

Yeah, see although i don't have big expensive machine experience. I do have a lifetime of doing mechanical things and fixing mechanical problems/errors and refixing others' fixes. I'm an uncertified diesel mechanic, tractor mechanic, electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc.

Broken taps and bits and dulled reamers. I fully get feed rate and how MRR pushes the limits of tooling and finish WRT the material. When i looked up Volumill from above, it all made perfect sense and is what i expect many guys have been doing for years. It appears to be developed to do what experienced 'chinists have been doing to generated code to optimize chipload and RR without breaking stuff.

I look at everything from the "total perspective" WRT the Goal, because if i can't help the Co. make the profit, there is no point in me being there.

I've learned a good bit about manual machining (i've been on a few lathes and have a dipshit lathe in my shop.) Never powered up a mill. One of my best bros has a Bridgeport and a big lathe in his garage, but they've yet to be set up (3 years now). If I'm still "floating around doing whatever" when that happens, I'll be making some chips there. He did a short stint in a shop before he went into Marines in 83.

I've lusted after all machine tools and TIG equipment most of my life. Never had access. Just was stupid in the first two or three directions i went.

[Mike Mcdermid]

contrary to what I may have posted elsewhere on this board, I think I'm a pretty decent machinist. I could probably make a living at it if I had to. But I feel overwhelmed by the stuff I don't know. For example, gdt

you would be surprised by how many people who have worked for many many years in precision engineering still dont get GD&T, its just a language like g code a set of instructions symbolized to say make sure this is or conforms to this, we had one guy who I'm sure spent his afternoon trying to figure out what the D was in gin and tonic.....seriously

I forgot to mention it was 4 years after working at a place making Combustion Outer Casings for the ROLLS ROYCE trent engines before I ever got to touch the CNC version of the manual tools we used for making those things

[WadePatton]

Well, buh-bye sleep, I just signed on to three different machinist forums.

[WadePatton]

For any other old dogs adding to their trick collection (or young dogs who went to the wrong school), this looks like a pretty good place for information. Lots of machine specifics too:

Learn CNC G-Code Programming by Examples - Helman CNC

[EricKeller]

you would be surprised by how many people who have worked for many many years in precision engineering still dont get GD&T

I'm pretty sure I get it, and the reasoning behind it is pretty compelling. There was a spare part I used to have a hand in ordering that couldn't be purchased with all the holes pre-drilled because the tolerances on the print wouldn't actually guarantee that the part would fit. That sort of thing shouldn't happen with properly applied GD&T. It's just that when I sit down and try to actually learn to read the notations it floors me because the implications are fairly deep. And so trying to apply it is not going to happen. But I know I'm not alone in this.

[WadePatton]

For any other old dogs adding to their trick collection (or young dogs who went to the wrong school), this looks like a pretty good place for information. Lots of machine specifics too:

Learn CNC G-Code Programming by Examples - Helman CNC

It's not often i quote me, but that there link provides a lot of programs "examples" and really nothing else. Appears to be a source for "copy and tweak" programming. Which isn't really teaching, but maybe it is.

As to the JOB thing. I've called, he doesn't call back. I drove over there. he's gone for the day. I guess I'm fucked on that one.