Timepieces

[Matthew Strongin]

gold nautilus is pretty easy to get vs. steel...so is a ceramic tourbillon royal oak apparently (buddy offered to my but i politely declined)...super spendy and most peeps can't/won't pay for it...but the ADs still have to move them...i could walk into any AD today and buy a gold sky-dweller at a discount

the steel watches are harder to come by because mere mortals can afford them so the demand is higher

of course an AD isn't going to tell you that you have to buy anything. but all things being equal, if someone is on the list who buys other stuff they're going to get preference plain and simple. being a good customer means you buy stuff. PERIOD.

same with ferraris.

Yes, steel versions are harder to get because they're affordable to mere mortals. The gold nautilus, though, isn't easy to get. The steel nautilus is harder to get because Patek makes more gold watches than steel. But they're all very difficult to get.

Royal Oak is a different story. The demand for AP just isn't anywhere close to what it is for Rolex or Patek.

Gold Skydwellers are easier to get because, as you said, they're out of the price range for most mortals. Same goes with gold daytonas. You'll find them sitting in the case, which would never happen with a steel daytona.

My point is that there's a difference between being a regular good customer and that giving you an understandable preferential edge in buying a hard to get product and the perception that gets tossed about that some sort of trade, you buy this now and I'll get you on the list for the one you want, is the norm. It happens, but not at reputable dealers that care about their long term relationship with Rolex or Patek.

I live in this world when not at my day job and there's a lot of misperception that gets perpetuated on the internet or because of a store here or there.

[Matthew Strongin]

^^Stuff like that is a huge turnoff to me on the brand. Being given or 'earning' the privileged to buy something, eh, that ain't for me. That said, they certainly don't owe a watch to anyone, and they can run their business however they want, and it seems to be working well for them.

That's not how the brands work and the brands themselves are very much against that "buy this now to earn your place for the other one" tactic. Some products have limited availability. The same goes for almost every luxury good and plenty of non-luxury goods too. So when something has high demand and low availability, and a store gets one in inventory, they can choose to sell it the long standing customer who has bought many products from them before or they can sell it to one of the random 30 people who called that day to see if they had it and who they'll never see again. Who would you sell it to?

[dgaddis]

Who would you sell it to?

I would have a list. Your spot on the list is entirely dependent on when you get on the list. When it's your turn, then you can buy the item.

Ferrari has done the 'you have to be qualified to buy this' thing a time or two. When the Enzo came out you had to apply to get permission to buy one, and some of the qualifiers were having previously owned one of their other super cars like the F40 or F50. Their goal was to only sell them to customers who would actually use them, not just collectors who would put it in a warehouse and let it sit hoping to sell it for profit later.

[funcrusher]

Yes, steel versions are harder to get because they're affordable to mere mortals. The gold nautilus, though, isn't easy to get. The steel nautilus is harder to get because Patek makes more gold watches than steel. But they're all very difficult to get.

Royal Oak is a different story. The demand for AP just isn't anywhere close to what it is for Rolex or Patek.

Gold Skydwellers are easier to get because, as you said, they're out of the price range for most mortals. Same goes with gold daytonas. You'll find them sitting in the case, which would never happen with a steel daytona.

My point is that there's a difference between being a regular good customer and that giving you an understandable preferential edge in buying a hard to get product and the perception that gets tossed about that some sort of trade, you buy this now and I'll get you on the list for the one you want, is the norm. It happens, but not at reputable dealers that care about their long term relationship with Rolex or Patek.

I live in this world when not at my day job and there's a lot of misperception that gets perpetuated on the internet or because of a store here or there.

i'm not reading shit on the internet. i've bot a lot more watches in my life than bikes. how can you be a good regular customer without buying stuff regularly? by definition you can't buy the high demand stuff regularly. and ADs can't survive by just selling the high demand/low supply stuff because also by defintion they're not getting great allocations. i'm not saying this is some untoward AD tactic, it is simply business reality. if i'm a reputable AD and i have a customer who "regularly" buys product then he/she is going to get preference. no one is forcing anyone to buy a gold rolex. but if you want a steel one, you need to be a good customer which means you probably need to pony up for a gold one.

moreover, not all ADs are reputable. if that were the case, then you wouldn't see so much grey market supply even though Rolex has done its best to clean up distrubution.

fine watch retailing is a pretty shitty business. super high working capital and very low turnover. the only way to generate cash flow is by turning over inventory. the high demand steel sport watches are essentially sold before they hit the shop, but you only get a few. you need to sell the blue/gold sub to keep the lights on.

[dashDustin]

So when something has high demand and low availability, and a store gets one in inventory, they can choose to sell it the long standing customer who has bought many products from them before or they can sell it to one of the random 30 people who called that day to see if they had it and who they'll never see again. Who would you sell it to?

i'm starting to wonder if high-end retail (think $10k bikes) and luxury retail differ in customer loyalty.

[Matthew Strongin]

I would have a list. Your spot on the list is entirely dependent on when you get on the list. When it's your turn, then you can buy the item.

Ferrari has done the 'you have to be qualified to buy this' thing a time or two. When the Enzo came out you had to apply to get permission to buy one, and some of the qualifiers were having previously owned one of their other super cars like the F40 or F50. Their goal was to only sell them to customers who would actually use them, not just collectors who would put it in a warehouse and let it sit hoping to sell it for profit later.

The list would be 400 people long the afternoon of the first day of Baselworld and be mostly full of flippers who have no intention of wearing the watch, rather than selling it for a premium to some much farther down the list. That's bad business.

[Matthew Strongin]

i'm not reading shit on the internet. i've bot a lot more watches in my life than bikes. how can you be a good regular customer without buying stuff regularly? by definition you can't buy the high demand stuff regularly. and ADs can't survive by just selling the high demand/low supply stuff because also by defintion they're not getting great allocations. i'm not saying this is some untoward AD tactic, it is simply business reality. if i'm a reputable AD and i have a customer who "regularly" buys product then he/she is going to get preference. no one is forcing anyone to buy a gold rolex. but if you want a steel one, you need to be a good customer which means you probably need to pony up for a gold one.

moreover, not all ADs are reputable. if that were the case, then you wouldn't see so much grey market supply even though Rolex has done its best to clean up distrubution.

fine watch retailing is a pretty shitty business. super high working capital and very low turnover. the only way to generate cash flow is by turning over inventory. the high demand steel sport watches are essentially sold before they hit the shop, but you only get a few. you need to sell the blue/gold sub to keep the lights on.

Sorry, I wasn't saying you specifically are spouting BS from the internet. I think we're mostly agreeing. Of course being a good customer means buying stuff regularly. And being a good customer is a great way to get good treatment, including consideration for hard to get pieces. Every store will define their own version of "good customer" and some may want you to buy the gold pieces and some may be cool with the fact that you bought your wedding bands, oyster perpetual and anniversary gifts there. I'm just stating that the tactic of buy this now and I'll get you that is frowned upon by the brands and not generally practiced by reputable dealers. Customers come in all the time and ask, what do I need to buy to get a _____ and the answer is usually that it doesn't work like that. That, to me, is different than a customer who is an actual regular customer being given a chance to buy something rare.

And you're absolutely right about shady ADs. Most aren't. Some are. And some brands care more about it than others. Tag, for instance, pretends like it cares...but it doesn't. Rolex very much cares. So does Patek and a few others.

[Matthew Strongin]

i'm starting to wonder if high-end retail (think $10k bikes) and luxury retail differ in customer loyalty.

How so?

[NYCfixie]

I'm with Strongin on this one. I have been looking in NYC, NJ, Boston, Syracuse, Denver, London, Amsterdam, and a few other places and all the ADs tell me the same thing: Your best shot is with the AD you have a long-standing relationship with.

I have a relationship that dates back to early 2005 with an independent family owned and operated jewelry store (actually 5 stores total in NJ, MA, RI, and DE) that also happens to be a Rolex AD in 4 of the 5 stores. I was a customer of the NJ location (2005-2015) and purchased several expensive jewelry pieces for my wife over the years and my 36mm steel/gold DateJust back in late 2009. We always worked with the NJ manager. In early 2018, I wanted a Submariner Date and learned there are now waiting lists so I called the NJ store and asked if they had one. The manger told me that he would put me on his list but it might be a few weeks/months, gave me the name of the watch manger in Boston, and told me to introduce myself and get on his list as well. The NJ manager said while he would love to sell me the watch, I should purchase it from whichever store gets it for me first. I went to the Boston store, met the watch manager, he looked me up in the computer and did indeed find out that we were good long time customers, he put me on his list, and then invited me to an after Basel Rolex event they were having in a few weeks.

The Boston store got me the Submariner Date in less than 3 months from my initial call to the NJ store. After more than a year I went back to the Boston store and talked about why I did not like the Submariner Date. The watch manager is a nice guy and understood that sometimes a dream is not the same as reality. He offered me a few solutions to sell it and was saddened that the 1 store they owned and was not a Rolex AD could not purchase it back from me because of some Rolex rule since all the stores are under the same corporate umbrella. I also mentioned that I had recently sold my 40mm Explorer II Polar (purchased new in 1994 but not from them) and was frustrated I just did not keep it when I realized I did not love the Submariner Date. A few months later they had a 42mm Explorer II Polar which was offered to me so I purchased it.

I mentioned a few months ago to the Boston watch manager that I had a major birthday coming up this year and wanted something special to celebrate it and that I had finished my graduate degree a few months ago. I reminded him that while I really liked the GMT Master II, I did not like the Pepsi variant which I tried on at the after Basel event they held the prior year. I shared that I liked the new Batgirl as well as the 41mm DateJust fluted bezel jubilee bracelet blue dial with stick markers. His response was, "which one do you really want?" I replied "the batgirl" so he said, "then wait for it and I will do all I can to get you one". I ended with, "please do not use my actual birth date as a deadline because I will be patient no matter how long it takes".

So while this independent company has been very good to me, they also have other long time customers who probably spend a great deal more money than I do and also want these in-demand watches. The Boston manger full well knows that I am not a flipper, I am not purchasing these watches for vanity sake, and that I am a true aficionado. He often sees me wearing the 36mm DateJust I purchased at NJ in 2009, and I mean really, who gets rid of a Submariner Date for an Explorer II? If that does not prove that I am purchasing these for myself, I am not sure what else does.

As for the other steel/gold watches (Daytona, Sea Dweller, and Submariner Bluesy), they are being offered to me as a courtesy because they can easily sell those watches to other good customers. At worst, they are in a major tourist area in Boston so if they put those desirable watches in the case, they would sell within hours.

To further my point, I know that Boston watch manger uses Molskine notebooks at work. I happened to find out that Barnes and Noble use to have a special edition Moleskine color a few years ago that almost exactly matches the Rolex green and I was able to purchase the last few locally. I recently gave them to him as a gift to say thanks for his help. Not for selling me watches but spending time with me and discussing watches, many types he does not sell and thinks I should own, just because he too is a collector. And, when I stopped in to see the Submariner Bluesy he said, "How is the job search going? I know you are transitioning to Information Security and if you want I can put you on touch with my sister (who is also in InfoSec) and I have a friend at Boston University who is also in Tech and might be able to help." Based on this, I do not think he is trying to sell me anything just to earn a few more shekels.

they're offering it to you cuz they can't sell them cuz nobody wants them...they're not doing you any favors

if you really want a shot at a new gmt master ii you have to play ball by buying what they're offering so they can make a few shekels. ADs see the secondary market nonsense and it prob hurts them since they can't participate.

i have a good buddy who got a new pepsi gmt...took him 4 months once he got on the list...but he had to buy a gold nautilus first...he's on the list for a blue sky dweller on my behalf!

That doesn't make any sense. The nautilus is harder to get than the pepsi.

I don't doubt that plenty of shop employees spin yarns about what you need to buy to get what other hard watch or that there are some shops who follow shady practices, but it's actually pretty simple. Find a reputable dealer, be a good customer, and be patient. Some of these watches have limited availability due to very high demand and low production counts; so much so that it actually doesn't make sense to "trade" the sale of a less desirable watch for access to the hard to find ones because they already have a list of good, long standing customers who want the watch and not enough to go around. They're trying to see NYCFixie that steel and gold Sub because they'll make money selling the steel and gold Sub. He's already proven that he's a good customer of the store and, if memory serves me, they've already delivered him other hard to get watches like the Sub he sold. If they told him they'll get him a blue/black GMT jubilee, they'll most likely deliver whether or not he buys the S&G Sub.

I think the issue is with Rolex supply and not the ADs sales practices. The ADs are always going to take care of long time customers before a stranger walking in off the street. Why is favoritism such an issue in the watch world when it is so prevalent everywhere else?

^^Stuff like that is a huge turnoff to me on the brand. Being given or 'earning' the privileged to buy something, eh, that ain't for me. That said, they certainly don't owe a watch to anyone, and they can run their business however they want, and it seems to be working well for them.

[theflashunc]

Watches ain't half as bad as some other hobbies.

[AngryScientist]

AD's can't just have a list and work off of that unless maybe they were to take a deposit. If it were just a simple list, there would be nothing to stop me from calling every Rolex AD in the country and getting on their list for a sub and just taking the first one that comes along.

i have found that most rolex dealers, at least the ones i have had the opportunity to speak to are very reasonable, friendly folks.

i am confident that even if you are not a long standing customer, if you go into a dealer in person, speak to the manager and let them know you are sincerely seeking model X and that you are willing to wait for it and work with them exclusively, they will put you on a list and give you fair access to the watch, within reason based on their other customer demands.

these are just luxury timepieces, nothing any of us NEEDS today or tomorrow. you want one that is in demand, research the dealer landscape around you, go have an adult conversation and get in line. that's a reasonable approach that i think would work for most people.

[Matthew Strongin]

AD's can't just have a list and work off of that unless maybe they were to take a deposit. If it were just a simple list, there would be nothing to stop me from calling every Rolex AD in the country and getting on their list for a sub and just taking the first one that comes along.

You'd likely be surprised at the volume of calls and emails for those hard to get watches. Orders of magnitudes higher than most people would think and orders of magnitude higher than will ever be produced. So either the demand is truly that far out of sync with production or exactly what you describe is what prospective customers (or gray market flippers) are trying to do. Or both.

[AngryScientist]

You'd likely be surprised at the volume of calls and emails for those hard to get watches. Orders of magnitudes higher than most people would think and orders of magnitude higher than will ever be produced. So either the demand is truly that far out of sync with production or exactly what you describe is what prospective customers (or gray market flippers) are trying to do. Or both.

agree.

let's get right down to it, where is Jomashop getting all their rolex watches from? honestly i'm shocked this goes on with what i know about rolex.

why can i buy NYCfixie's target watch with one click right now?

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

[Matthew Strongin]

agree.

let's get right down to it, where is Jomashop getting all their rolex watches from? honestly i'm shocked this goes on with what i know about rolex.

why can i buy NYCfixie's target watch with one click right now?

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

Because, as funcrusher noted, there are still some sketchy ADs out there and because there are a lot of customers tempted by the premiums so they flip them. As long as demand is what it is, people will find a way to get them and resell them. Good luck with the warranty, though. And that assuming it's real and unmodified.

[NYCfixie]

AD's can't just have a list and work off of that unless maybe they were to take a deposit. If it were just a simple list, there would be nothing to stop me from calling every Rolex AD in the country and getting on their list for a sub and just taking the first one that comes along.

i have found that most rolex dealers, at least the ones i have had the opportunity to speak to are very reasonable, friendly folks.

i am confident that even if you are not a long standing customer, if you go into a dealer in person, speak to the manager and let them know you are sincerely seeking model X and that you are willing to wait for it and work with them exclusively, they will put you on a list and give you fair access to the watch, within reason based on their other customer demands.

these are just luxury timepieces, nothing any of us NEEDS today or tomorrow. you want one that is in demand, research the dealer landscape around you, go have an adult conversation and get in line. that's a reasonable approach that i think would work for most people.

I might be misreading your post but it appears you are contradicting yourself.

As you first suggested and as did Strongin, ADs simply do not have lists of every person who walks-in off the street (or calls) and wants an in-demand watch because it would be a huge time suck and unreasonable to manage. ADs do keep lists of long term customers needs/wants/desires for these same in-demand watches and they are definitely ranked based on your spending (and attitude).

There is simply no reason for an AD to sell any in-demand watch to a "new" customer when they can sell it to a "current" customer.

As someone already suggested in a previous post, ADs really want long term customers who will be purchasing many items (watches, jewelry, gift items, etc.) over the years rather than someone who comes in to purchase 1 watch and has no intention of buying anything else ever again.

[dashDustin]

How so?

loyalty is waning in high-end retail. seems the only way to maintain a relationship with a good customer is to offer a discount. a loyalty discount.

[funcrusher]

agree.

let's get right down to it, where is Jomashop getting all their rolex watches from? honestly i'm shocked this goes on with what i know about rolex.

why can i buy NYCfixie's target watch with one click right now?

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the less reputable ADs sell to grey market "distributors" and share in the ridiculous premium ($15,750 vs. $9700 MSRP)...and my guess is that many of these are being sourced overseas

[Matthew Strongin]

loyalty is waning in high-end retail. seems the only way to maintain a relationship with a good customer is to offer a discount. a loyalty discount.

Ah. I could see that. There are probably differences when it comes to availability, though. Though it's just an assumption, I imagine a Spesh dealer could get as many S-Works Vengeseses as they could sell, so a discount is the best way to reward the longtime, multi-purchase, loyal customer. If the Venge was in limited supply and high demand, just having access may be the reward.

[NYCfixie]

I am unwilling to purchase it without a warranty, unclear provenance, and at twice the cost of retail.

I am not judging others but I do not buy watches based on others social media posts and vanity reasons (and I do not think you or Strongin do either). I was into Rolex watches a very long time ago before the craziness started recently and my love of them has been proven by purchasing the most undesirable Rolex (Explorer II Polar) at the time in 1994. I purchased it because I liked it, valued Rolex quality, and wanted something understated and would not be noticed on the NYC subway which I used everyday in 1994 an was not as safe as it is today!

agree.

let's get right down to it, where is Jomashop getting all their rolex watches from? honestly i'm shocked this goes on with what i know about rolex.
why can i buy NYCfixie's target watch with one click right now?
Attention Required! | Cloudflare

Because, as funcrusher noted, there are still some sketchy ADs out there and because there are a lot of customers tempted by the premiums so they flip them. As long as demand is what it is, people will find a way to get them and resell them. Good luck with the warranty, though. And that assuming it's real and unmodified.

Have you read (or watched videos) about the Horology House fake Rolex sales?
Horology House Of Horrors


Q&A Ep. 15 - Horology House Fake Rolex Scandal, My Grail Watch and More

[NYCfixie]

the less reputable ADs sell to grey market "distributors" and share in the ridiculous premium ($15,750 vs. $9700 MSRP)...and my guess is that many of these are being sourced overseas

And the less reputable ADs get to dump/sell 10-20 less-in-demand watches with each 1 in-demand watch they sell to a grey market dealer. Basically, they are willing to take the crap if they can get a premium on the good one. And the grey market don't have the overhead of the retail AD.